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FemFlex
09-04-2008, 06:50 PM
In response to a discussion about webcam work, Danielle posted the following:

To each their own...I suppose. But I have to say, that after reading this sections and doing a quick Google search, I was appalled to see the amount of figure and bodybuilding women that are taking part in such types of...dare I say pornography. Maybe I am naive or possibly overly conservative.

I really thought that figure was meant to empower women. Though I hate to put on those clear stripper shoes for competitions, I didn't realize that they are worn by some all year round.

I am sure I will get blasted for this one. However, I don't care. This is my stance and I am sticking to it. I understand that people need money, but money is not everything. Sure it will pay your bills, but this type of "work" is really limiting to ones career.

The internet is a great thing, to a certain extent. But people do need to remember that the entire world now has access to what you do. Especially, if it is more "private" in nature.

Male or female, virtually every choice you make empowers you.

At their respective cores, what is the difference between posing for free and posing for money?

It's Not Roid Rage !
09-04-2008, 08:17 PM
In response to a discussion about webcam work, Danielle posted the following:



Male or female, virtually every choice you make empowers you.

At their respective cores, what is the difference between posing for free and posing for money?

Well, I wish I atleast had the Choice to show Some Ass for money, Hell I'd Have to Pay You To Look At It ! LMAO :waving:

anglicanbeachparty
09-04-2008, 11:08 PM
At their respective cores, what is the difference between posing for free and posing for money?

The poses are different.

I think posing for money usually goes beyond compulsory poses and quarter turns ...

Musclepapa John
09-04-2008, 11:28 PM
In response to a discussion about webcam work, Danielle posted the following:
Male or female, virtually every choice you make empowers you.
At their respective cores, what is the difference between posing for free and posing for money?

Bad choices don't necessarily empower people. Of course "bad" denotes a value judgment and system might should be adhered to. Persuasion, rhetoric, and manipulation involve encouraging people to make certain choices whether or not they result in empowerment or just bad choices. I'm certainly for empowerment.

Definition: Choice consists of the mental process of thinking involved with the process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one of them for action. Some simple examples include deciding whether to get up in the morning or go back to sleep, or selecting a given route for a journey. More complex examples (often decisions that affect what a person thinks or their core beliefs) include choosing a lifestyle, religious affiliation, or political position.

Most people regard having choices as a good thing, though a severely limited or artificially restricted choice can lead to discomfort with choosing and possibly, an unsatisfactory outcome. In contrast, unlimited choice may lead to confusion, regret of the alternatives not taken, and indifference in an unstructured existence; and the illusion that choosing an object or a course leads necessarily to control of that object or course can cause psychological problems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice


Empowerment:

The process which enables one to gain power,authority and influence over others,institutions or society. Empowerment is probably the totality of the following or similar capabilities:-

* Having decision-making power of one's own
* Having access to information and resources for taking proper decision
* Having a range of options from which you can make choices (not just yes/no, either/or.)
* Ability to exercise assertiveness in collective decision making
* Having positive thinking on the ability to make change
* Ability to learn skills for improving one's personal or group power.
* Ability to change others’ perceptions by democratic means.
* Involving in the growth process and changes that is never ending and self-initiated
* Increasing one's positive self-image and overcoming stigma
* Increasing ones ability in discreet thinking to sort out right and wrong

In short, the empowerment is the process that allows one to gain the knowledge, skill-sets and attitude needed to cope up with the changing world and the circumstances in which one lives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empowerment

Persuasion is a form of social influence. It is the process of guiding people toward the adoption of an idea, attitude, or action by rational and symbolic (though not always logical) means. It is strategy of problem-solving relying on "appeals" rather than strength.

Manipulation is taking persuasion to an extreme, where the one person or group benefits at the cost of the other.

Aristotle said that "Rhetoric is the art of discovering, in a particular case, the available means of persuasion."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasion

foxybr189
09-04-2008, 11:57 PM
Very well said Papa!

Again, I was only speaking from my standpoint. For me, the issue is not about posing for money or not. It's more about the type or genre of posing.

I'm not sure if anyone else agrees with me, but even though I am 26 years old, I am still very mindful of how my actions will affect those close to me. My parents and elders made many sacrifices to ensure that I had a good upbringing. I would feel ashamed for my mother or father to Google me on the internet to see my show results and end up finding out that I have "adult" images posted on websites. How would I explain that to them?

I speak to many young girls that I know about perusing their dreams of becoming whatever they dream of being in life. How could I explain to them how posing nude is empowering to them; I could not.

At the end of the day, I know that I have kept true to myself. I work out hard and eat healthy, I hold a position that at one time was not available to women or minorities and I am "rich" with self-pride.

I hope that I can inspire other young girls to attain their dreams while keeping their dignity and I would not be a good role model if I was partaking in such activities.

That is where I am coming from when I made my first comment.

FemFlex
09-05-2008, 12:44 AM
Very well said Papa!
He simply quotes a bunch of items from Wikipedia and that's 'well said'?

I don't think we're off to a good start here.

This is only my opinion.

joelster
09-05-2008, 02:01 AM
Money talks. It always does, always will. Some of you say you won't "pose" in that sort of manner, because of the consequences, and repercussions.

Suppose I were to offer you $1000.00 for a few shots of nudity. Of course you would instantly deny the offer, but what if I raised the stakes?

What if I said $10,000 for a few photographs? I bet you would think about it for a second or 2.

What if I said $30,000? Think about a new car for yourself, paying off ALL OF YOUR BILLS, bankrolling a nice chunk...whatever you want to do. Now your mind is thinking "Hrmm...maybe noone will find out"

What if I said $100,000? You'd be sending me a pm.


BTW, I don't do this stuff, lol, i'll buy you a few drinks though.

Musclepapa John
09-05-2008, 02:08 AM
He simply quotes a bunch of items from Wikipedia and that's 'well said'?

Factually incorrect assertion, but will likely serve your purpose in being persuasive with those inclined toward your position. There were more than quotations from Wikipedia. Let me quote myself (lol), "Bad choices don't necessarily empower people. Of course "bad" denotes a value judgment and system might should be adhered to. Persuasion, rhetoric, and manipulation involve encouraging people to make certain choices whether or not they result in empowerment or just bad choices. I'm certainly for empowerment."


I don't take issue with the choice made by some to take off their clothes and do photography or sessions, but recognize that foxybr189 is making points every bit as persuasive as yours. Where some are already set in their decision as to what choices to make relative to this issue this entire thread may be a mute point. Yet, where she takes one side and you essentially take the other I'd say this should be interesting and thought provoking. :popcorn:

Musclepapa John
09-05-2008, 02:18 AM
Money talks. It always does, always will. Some of you say you won't "pose" in that sort of manner, because of the consequences, and repercussions.
Suppose I were to offer you $1000.00 for a few shots of nudity. Of course you would instantly deny the offer, but what if I raised the stakes?
What if I said $10,000 for a few photographs? I bet you would think about it for a second or 2.
What if I said $30,000? Think about a new car for yourself, paying off ALL OF YOUR BILLS, bankrolling a nice chunk...whatever you want to do. Now your mind is thinking "Hrmm...maybe noone will find out"
What if I said $100,000? You'd be sending me a pm.
BTW, I don't do this stuff, lol, i'll buy you a few drinks though.

I know and work with ladies who do sessions work and ladies who work in professions where they wouldn't consider sending you the pm for a chance at collecting that 100Gs. Oh sure you can always get people to do most anything with money. Fear Factor and shows like Jerry Springer demonstrate the availability of people willing to do most anything publicly. Will I publicly denounce the lifestyle choices made by my sessions working buddies? No as I'm not their moral compass and they don't want to hear it from me. Most of these folks are very successful at what they do and it is "just" business. Yet, like Hollywood there are lots of folks that think their cute face and other assets are going to be their ticket to the top. We all should know few can make a serious and profitable go at it over the long haul. Then what?
Furthermore, media people also have choices. And don't expect members of the media to protect a session worker from exposure if an assignment is made by a publication to write about them wrestling City Councilmen, members of the clergy, etc. Of course most of these gals couldn't care less as they are tough as nails. And you don't have to be a sessions worker to face such scrutiny. Take a few nudes for a pay site and a member lift them and spread them around the internet and see if it can't hurt you as a school teacher, or with employment in any number of companies that now have for instance an Ethics Code of Conduct, that requires employees to comply or be dismissed. These are real concerns for the 20 something year old ladies that might get out of this sport in a few years and want to put the entire thingie behind them,...but alas them durn pictures ;)

FemFlex
09-05-2008, 04:43 AM
Very well said Papa!

Again, I was only speaking from my standpoint. For me, the issue is not about posing for money or not. It's more about the type or genre of posing.

I'm not sure if anyone else agrees with me, but even though I am 26 years old, I am still very mindful of how my actions will affect those close to me. My parents and elders made many sacrifices to ensure that I had a good upbringing. I would feel ashamed for my mother or father to Google me on the internet to see my show results and end up finding out that I have "adult" images posted on websites. How would I explain that to them?

I speak to many young girls that I know about perusing their dreams of becoming whatever they dream of being in life. How could I explain to them how posing nude is empowering to them; I could not.

At the end of the day, I know that I have kept true to myself. I work out hard and eat healthy, I hold a position that at one time was not available to women or minorities and I am "rich" with self-pride.

I hope that I can inspire other young girls to attain their dreams while keeping their dignity and I would not be a good role model if I was partaking in such activities.

That is where I am coming from when I made my first comment.
When I was your age, I was a little uptight about certain things, too. Life was all about 'making the family proud', etc.

But now that I'm older, I realize that everyone's life is so much bigger now that no one has time to give a rat's patootie what I'm doing in my personal or professional life, whether in the public eye or behind closed doors. MY LIFE JUST ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT TO ANYONE BUT ME (and my nosey-ass ex-wife, but's a different story).

One of the women I most admire in this world has been a webcam performer in her rather limited spare time over the past few years. She's got multiple degrees (including an MBA) and is a wife and mother. Oh, she's also a corporate executive. I'd be willing to put her resumé and value as a person in this world up against anyone you're willing to trot out there and she will match or exceed them all in terms of dignity.

You have built a wonderful life for yourself. I can appreciate you noting the sacrifices of those who've helped you to become what you are. I don't want you to think for a moment that I'm being dismissive of that.

But c'mon now - do parents really 'Google' their kids??

I'm open about what I do and although my mother has teased me a few times over the years, at the end of the day, her primary concern is that I'm being a good dad and providing for her grandchild.

I have always maintained that 'webcam isn't for everyone' and that goes for would-be performers and would-be clients. But be that as it may, I don't know that it's a valuable use of energy or emotion to be 'appalled' at what some adults choose to do in the privacy of their own homes or of the photographers' studios.

FemFlex
09-05-2008, 04:47 AM
BTW, I don't do this stuff, lol, i'll buy you a few drinks though.

LOL!!

:awesome:

I know that Dr. Lisa Aukland won't do it. But she's on an exclusive, VERY short list.

Lisa
09-05-2008, 05:06 AM
Great Thread:
When I was young & Idealistic I probably would have said no fuckin way, do not sell your body/soul......(self rightous)

But ya know what I am almost 43 now , Mother of 3 sons, Grandma of two, and ya know what???? Life experience behind me so......... Show me the money & I will show ya my tastefull nude pics...

Why not? My body is beautiful, I worked hard get it, it sells, I am PROUD so why NOT make money off it???? Of course, I would not submit slutty pics, but I am all about the beauty & art of FBB....

Again, JMO....

ibarramedia
09-05-2008, 05:34 AM
Great Thread:
When I was young & Idealistic I probably would have said no fuckin way, do not sell your body/soul......(self rightous)

But ya know what I am almost 43 now , Mother of 3 sons, Grandma of two, and ya know what???? Life experience behind me so......... Show me the money & I will show ya my tastefull nude pics...

Why not? My body is beautiful, I worked hard get it, it sells, I am PROUD so why NOT make money off it???? Of course, I would not submit slutty pics, but I am all about the beauty & art of FBB....

Again, JMO....


Grandma Wow. Hottest looking grand ma no doubt. ;) I'll bet the grand kids woud brag about you. :bowdown:

musclefox
09-05-2008, 06:41 AM
Well, I wish I atleast had the Choice to show Some Ass for money, Hell I'd Have to Pay You To Look At It ! LMAO :waving:



Hey I.N.R.R. Do you own fort knox? Cause' you would need THAT much!!
(sorry - i couldn't resist :touche: )

Musclepapa John
09-05-2008, 11:36 AM
When I was your age, I was a little uptight about certain things, too. Life was all about 'making the family proud', etc.

But now that I'm older, I realize that everyone's life is so much bigger now that no one has time to give a rat's patootie what I'm doing in my personal or professional life, whether in the public eye or behind closed doors. MY LIFE JUST ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT TO ANYONE BUT ME (and my nosey-ass ex-wife, but's a different story).



So FemFlex where is the link to you naked in pictures? Are there certain sorts of poses you personally prefer that you think would be most salable? Surely it is a great opportunity to augment your income as there is a big market for it among some demographics. I'm sure more other than just the ex-wife would be interested. I'd even be willing to do you a promo writeup and further distribute with your espousal of how you feel empowered in the buff :popcorn:

Musclepapa John
09-05-2008, 11:47 AM
One of the women I most admire in this world has been a webcam performer in her rather limited spare time over the past few years. She's got multiple degrees (including an MBA) and is a wife and mother. Oh, she's also a corporate executive. I'd be willing to put her resumé and value as a person in this world up against anyone you're willing to trot out there and she will match or exceed them all in terms of dignity.


No doubt, from the biblical perspective we shouldn't judge one persons' "value as a person" against another. Yet, I'd certainly be interested in knowing who is this Fortune 500 (I'd assume) corporate executive that you note does web cam work? Not to say she doesn't have value as a person, but that story has numerous news values and as a result I'd bet I could get it in print rather easily. Maybe it would help her make more money at it or as an executive maybe she doesn't do it for money. Heck, there we go with more interesting news values. Does she do it for attention, or what? As she wants such attention and is obviously proud of her activities surely you will reveal her name and the corporation in an effort to provide her further exposure right? :)
Can you imagine if it was found out "Sarah Palin" did web cam work?

foxybr189
09-05-2008, 12:09 PM
No doubt, from the biblical perspective we shouldn't judge one persons' "value as a person" against another. Yet, I'd certainly be interested in knowing who is this Fortune 500 (I'd assume) corporate executive that you note does web cam work? Not to say she doesn't have value as a person, but that story has numerous news values and as a result I'd bet I could get it in print rather easily. Maybe it would help her make more money at it or as an executive maybe she doesn't do it for money. Heck, there we go with more interesting news values. Does she do it for attention, or what? As she wants such attention and is obviously proud of her activities surely you will reveal her name and the corporation in an effort to provide her further exposure right? :)
Can you imagine if it was found out "Sarah Palin" did web cam work?

I would also be interested to know more about that woman too.

I am not an executive, but I am manager at a Fortune 500 company who is on the top 10 list of medical device companies. I can assure you that if I had pictures of this nature, I would not have been offered the opportunity that I was given. As a women working in the corporate world, that is very much still a boys club, something like this would be very detrimental to my career.

Alli
09-05-2008, 12:36 PM
Ah I always love these threads. I sit back with a starbucks and get ready to give you all a mouthful hehe. Honestly- I am a sweetie in person, but these types of threads get me fired...for several reasons...and here I go.

1) We are all different. This has to be my stance on ANYTHING pertinent to what people are doing for money etc. We all have different sets of standards, morals, values, we all have boundaries- things we will do. Things we will not. It's extremly important to remember that what one person considers poor form or skanky or trashy or WHATEVER.... may not be considered poor form or skanky to another. We are all working women who participate on some level or another in the fitness industry, and therefore I think it's important to respect our differences- down to the differences in morals and values etc. To look at someone doing session work or nude work and say "That's disgusting, or she shouldn't be allowed to do that" is, in my opinion unfair. If you don't want to do it yourself-fine, but hounding another or blanket stating that is inappropriate is unfair as well, because its merely a declaration as a result of YOUR moral compass, not anothers, and the beauty of this country is that we are afforded the right to CHOOSE. So let's all keep that in mind :)

NOW- onto my personal experiences.... and my personal stance.

1) I am a college educated woman. I carry a double major in Wellness/sport sciences and English (of all things) haha as well as having a minor in athletic coaching (I coached cross country back when I was a runner). I am a certified aerobic instructor and acertified personal trainer. Certified in Sport Nutrition. A published poet. :) A certified Domestic Violence counselor ( I do volunteer work for the YWCA including hotline services to rape and assault victims).

Wow. All sounds good so far right?

WELL I am also a webcam performer. Pretty much fulltime. You can catch me on shemusclelive and on herbicepscam. Oh and I've done a wrestling video- one- for scissorvixens, just to see if I liked it. And I Thought they were professional as hell. It was fun. I'm not entirely opposed to doing it again.

Something tells me a few of you reading this have now been taking your opinion of me down a peg or two. That's okay. I'm going to keep going.

There are certain photographers I would LOVE to shoot nude with. John Stutz being one. My friend John Samson being another. Does that make me trampy?

How about I did some nude work for shemuscle in Brian Moss's gym in NY? Opinion of me still falling?

See- I am an educated, intelligent, well spoken, well read individual- yes. But I also am an athlete, a competitor, and I spend hours of dedication to diet and training to work on my body. You simply cannot do that- cannot waltz around in a bikini and then expect someone to say "tell me your opinion on politics". We work in an industry that rewards the physical not necessarily the mental. I do not make money off of my brains. I make money off of my physique, and to some degree we all do. Whether you do a small shoot for Tre or you do a thousand dollar nude spread you are making money off your physique- to one degree or another, and I simply don't see that as something to be looked down upon.

2) So where do I draw the line... hmmm well I can say this- each person needs to know what he or she is comfortable with and be willing to stick firm to it. I've done nude for one photographer and it simply happens to be someone I'm comfortable with and that's Brian Moss. Do I do nude work- I say no, because I'm ridiculously picky. Do I do session work? NO. Am I against session work? No- its just not for me. Have I done wrestling videos? yes. Have I said no to doing wrestling videos- yes (again very picky). But then again I dont need to justify my boundaries to others- I simply need to know them for myself and be strong in sticking firm to them. No one owes ANYONE in this industry, or in life for that matter, and explanation for their choicves or actions- they are allowed to be our own....and hopefully this thread is a place where we can all come as competitors, photographers, industry personnel and fans of the sport to create an environment that embraces the commonality among us rather then the things that seperate us. WE ARE ALL COMPETITORS OR FANS OF COMPETITORS OR PEOPLE WHO WORK WITH COMPETITORS.

3) Which brings me to point 3- competitors need to support themselves to. And let me tell you from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that working as a competitor and trying to hold down a full time job in the real world is hard as hell. Props to anyone who does it- I could not. I worked full time as a Director of Personal Training for Health Fitness Corporation for over a year after college. I had a 45 minute commute one way. I worked long hours. I made like 35,000 a year. And somewhere in there I tried to sandwich in a.m cardio pre contest, 6 meals a day, and weight lifting when I wasn't doing that. If I wasn't training or working I was sleeping which left me little time to have a life.

Then I discovered webcamming. I now set my own schedule. I work LESS hours, make MORE money, am afforded the time that I need to train and eat, and afforded more free time for my friends, family, and other relationships. I am less stressed. I am more relaxed. I'm happier. I smile more. Why in the hell would I consider giving that up simply because it sits ill with some people? I live in one of the most conservative counties in PA.. try explaining to people who dwell in an area surrounded by Amish that you "webcam" for a living. HA. But that's what I do and I'm unashamed. I make great money at it and the best part is I control my income. If I need to make more I work more. If I don't need the money I work less. And I would never go back to a 9-5 if I didn't have to.:)

I guess for me- the bottom line is that we all have morals and values that guide our choices. But your morals and values may be different from mine. If you don't want to be judged by others for your actions don't be so quick to judge others for theirs. We're here to support each other and encourage growth in the sport and on stage, not to pick at each other for our professions or for what we do in our spare time. Sex and nudity is a very private thing for many people- for others it's not. And for some, like me, we kinda float in the middle. Any way you look at it, it's okay as long as you are comfortable with YOURSELF and what YOU DO, you have no need to justify it to others...and people who get their panties in a twist on here because this one female bodybuilder or this one figure girl does nude porn- OHMIGOD well "get a life". Worry about yourself. Take care of yourself. Do what you need to do- make sure YOU'RE HAPPY. and let others do the same.

Alli
09-05-2008, 12:40 PM
So FemFlex where is the link to you naked in pictures? Are there certain sorts of poses you personally prefer that you think would be most salable? Surely it is a great opportunity to augment your income as there is a big market for it among some demographics. I'm sure more other than just the ex-wife would be interested. I'd even be willing to do you a promo writeup and further distribute with your espousal of how you feel empowered in the buff :popcorn:


Being in the buff can be empowering. Why do you think "How to look good naked" required nude shoots sometimes? Or that in certain cases I've read that its been recommended to women with low self esteem or a body hatred to do a nude photo shoot to help gain appreciation for their bodies. Photo shoots make people feel sexy, or wanted, or desired. They do. Because irregardless of the nature the concept of having someone WANT to shoot you makes you think of modeling- which makes you think of desireable attractive people. And that can be empowering. And having someone want to shoot you naked , at your rawest and most vulnerable, can be empowering. To be naked in front of a camera can be intimidating and scary yes, but then you hear "beautiful, drop the chin a little, perfect, wonderful, you look great, this is great, keep it up" and the positive feedback to your nude physique takes a thing of fear and makes it a thing of confidence.

Don't knock it till you try it :)

Anne Sheehan Dudash
09-05-2008, 01:22 PM
Wow...you go girls!!:bowdown:

I think people need to do what is right for them. If there's something someone else is doing and you don't like it..too fn bad! It's America..we have the right to.

I've done webcam and I honestly thought it was fun. Sure there would be people that would be obnoxious but it's easy enough to either ignore or block them from the room.

I love these people that pass judgement. Nobody here is an angel. We're human...animals that walk upright. Get over yourself.

Alli
09-05-2008, 01:25 PM
Wow...you go girls!!:bowdown:

I think people need to do what is right for them. If there's something someone else is doing and you don't like it..too fn bad! It's America..we have the right to.

I've done webcam and I honestly thought it was fun. Sure there would be people that would be obnoxious but it's easy enough to either ignore or block them from the room.

I love these people that pass judgement. Nobody here is an angel. We're human...animals that walk upright. Get over yourself.

:kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss:

ambydawn
09-05-2008, 01:51 PM
It's nice that many of you are so confident in your morals that this thread was started. I think Alli made a good point though. We all have very different values. Any action can be "empowering" as long as you are comfortable with it.
Consider this, there are many women who would never consider prancing on stage in a tiny posing suit and being compared to a slew of other women on a purely physical level. Why? Well, because their morals dictate otherwise. (Or they are in awful shape. LOL) Are they better than you because they are not posing provocatively in a bikini in an avatar?
How does that differ from being paid to model? How about being paid to model nude? As long as you are comfortable with yourself and your actions, I don't think there is much difference. Who cares what your neighbor thinks.
I should say that I have never posed nude, nor do I plan to. Depending on your line of work, it can certainly be damaging to your career. Let's be honest though. I doubt any of us on this board qualify for sainthood, so let's stop preaching like we do.

Anne Sheehan Dudash
09-05-2008, 02:03 PM
:kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss:

Teehee he he he:p

Alli
09-05-2008, 03:04 PM
It's nice that many of you are so confident in your morals that this thread was started. I think Alli made a good point though. We all have very different values. Any action can be "empowering" as long as you are comfortable with it.
Consider this, there are many women who would never consider prancing on stage in a tiny posing suit and being compared to a slew of other women on a purely physical level. Why? Well, because their morals dictate otherwise. (Or they are in awful shape. LOL) Are they better than you because they are not posing provocatively in a bikini in an avatar?
How does that differ from being paid to model? How about being paid to model nude? As long as you are comfortable with yourself and your actions, I don't think there is much difference. Who cares what your neighbor thinks.
I should say that I have never posed nude, nor do I plan to. Depending on your line of work, it can certainly be damaging to your career. Let's be honest though. I doubt any of us on this board qualify for sainthood, so let's stop preaching like we do.


REALLY good points- especially the ones about a lot of people looking down on competing and being on stage in a bikini as a whole- and it all goes back to what I said earlier (and what you said as well)- everyone draws the line somewhere.... everyone.

FemFlex
09-05-2008, 03:21 PM
REALLY good points- especially the ones about a lot of people looking down on competing and being on stage in a bikini as a whole- and it all goes back to what I said earlier (and what you said as well)- everyone draws the line somewhere.... everyone.
Amen to you both and to Anne, too.

And lovin' me some Lisa these days - go Alaska!

HDPhysiques-Joe
09-05-2008, 03:48 PM
Yep, agree Tre'. - excellent points once again by AlliMo, Anne. LOL @ "go Alaska!" - right on!

And more MPJ posts that are too laffable to waste time responding to. LOL

scottnva
09-05-2008, 04:10 PM
lets get one thing straight...if ur doing webcam your doing sessions, its that your sessions are done over the internet not in a hotel room.

MsGuns
09-05-2008, 04:30 PM
lets get one thing straight...if ur doing webcam your doing sessions, its that your sessions are done over the internet not in a hotel room.

Thats your opinion....you cant state that unless youve done both...as a performer

scottnva
09-05-2008, 05:04 PM
the whole point of either webcam or hotel room muscle worship meeting is the same REEL in clients to pay you a certain amount in a given period of time...that is a 'session' and no ms guns your NOT the foremost experrt on the subject so dont act like u are.

FemFlex
09-05-2008, 05:13 PM
lets get one thing straight...if ur doing webcam your doing sessions, its that your sessions are done over the internet not in a hotel room.
By your logic, competing in a physique competition is the same as doing a session, except that you don't get paid for it.

scottnva
09-05-2008, 05:18 PM
By your logic, competing in a physique competition is the same as doing a session, except that you don't get paid for it.

huh?

FemFlex
09-05-2008, 05:27 PM
the whole point of either webcam or hotel room muscle worship meeting is the same REEL in clients to pay you a certain amount in a given period of time...that is a 'session' and no ms guns your NOT the foremost experrt on the subject so dont act like u are.
She can speak for herself, but Ms. Guns is as qualified to speak on this topic as anyone else is, bro.

When providers and clients exchange services and money (or other consideration), that's capitalism at work.

Fair and honest business is a good thing.

scottnva
09-05-2008, 05:38 PM
alright i knew i should have stayed out of this post sorry ms guns...is it time for me to go to work yet i am bored!

MsGuns
09-05-2008, 05:52 PM
the whole point of either webcam or hotel room muscle worship meeting is the same REEL in clients to pay you a certain amount in a given period of time...that is a 'session' and no ms guns your NOT the foremost experrt on the subject so dont act like u are.

Scott, I never said I was an expert...and you are nowhere near it either.

musclefox
09-05-2008, 06:13 PM
By your logic, competing in a physique competition is the same as doing a session, except that you don't get paid for it.



That's actually an interesting perspective I've not noticed B 4.......someone should 'discuss' that.

FemFlex
09-05-2008, 07:11 PM
That's actually an interesting perspective I've not noticed B 4.......someone should 'discuss' that.
If you're in a physique competition:

You're showing off your physique
You're not wearing lots of clothing
There's an audience that has paid to see you
You're doing your best because want to receive some sort of reward

Anne Sheehan Dudash
09-05-2008, 07:27 PM
If you're in a physique competition:

You're showing off your physique
You're not wearing lots of clothing
There's an audience that has paid to see you
You're doing your best because want to receive some sort of reward

Yup and damn it if I wana be sexy and someone wants to pay me for it the hell w/ anyone that doesn't like it.

The line to be drawn is to be done by the individual, not by someone else telling them where that line is.

In person, on stage, on the net, clothes on or off, it's nobody's business but the entertainer and her client.

Hey...perhaps Scott is a paying client who knows very well the in's and out's of the profession?:rolleyes:

musclefox
09-05-2008, 07:51 PM
If you're in a physique competition:

You're showing off your physique
You're not wearing lots of clothing
There's an audience that has paid to see you
You're doing your best because want to receive some sort of reward



So are you suggesting there is 'exploitation' involved (by fans, promoters, etc.)?

Lisa
09-05-2008, 08:10 PM
Amen to you both and to Anne, too.

And lovin' me some Lisa these days - go Alaska!

LOL thx to you & HD!

I agree in some way that being on stage is like being "nude" bcause the fans, men or women think that is attractive (muscle worship) do not need to see you fully nude to be aroused .....Not all webcam work is butt azz nekkid , right?...(correct me if I am wrong here), some customers "get off" by just seeing muscles flexed......

Dane22
09-05-2008, 08:11 PM
Being in the buff can be empowering. Why do you think "How to look good naked" required nude shoots sometimes? Or that in certain cases I've read that its been recommended to women with low self esteem or a body hatred to do a nude photo shoot to help gain appreciation for their bodies. Photo shoots make people feel sexy, or wanted, or desired. They do. Because irregardless of the nature the concept of having someone WANT to shoot you makes you think of modeling- which makes you think of desireable attractive people. And that can be empowering. And having someone want to shoot you naked , at your rawest and most vulnerable, can be empowering. To be naked in front of a camera can be intimidating and scary yes, but then you hear "beautiful, drop the chin a little, perfect, wonderful, you look great, this is great, keep it up" and the positive feedback to your nude physique takes a thing of fear and makes it a thing of confidence.

Don't knock it till you try it :)
:awesome::respect: I couldn't agree more!!!
That's actually an interesting perspective I've not noticed B 4.......someone should 'discuss' that.

If you're in a physique competition:

You're showing off your physique
You're not wearing lots of clothing
There's an audience that has paid to see you
You're doing your best because want to receive some sort of reward

So what does that mean for those tha are sponsrerd??? Is that like session work as well???

:popcorn:

musclefox
09-05-2008, 08:21 PM
:awesome::respect: I couldn't agree more!!!




So what does that mean for those tha are sponsrerd??? Is that like session work as well???

:popcorn:



But I think it's depending on the perspective. Any line of work can exploit it's employees. One person's opinion is that webcam or visual (which could be expanded to the stage) is the same as a session.

If you did a traditional job (i.e. fireman) you could be exploited by being sent into the burning building first everytime, right? So likewise, couldn't a bodybuilder (woman or man) be exploited by their sponsors, (just asking)?

lil mama
09-05-2008, 08:45 PM
REALLY good points- especially the ones about a lot of people looking down on competing and being on stage in a bikini as a whole- and it all goes back to what I said earlier (and what you said as well)- everyone draws the line somewhere.... everyone.

Hello Alli...just wanna say I adore u no matter what u do with ur personal life it's not for me 2 judge, as a forum friend I will support ur decisions after all u iz a grown azz woman and can definitely make good decision as well as bad ones like everyone of us has in the past and will in the future were only human,like I said as a grown woman u know with everything we do there is an outcome good or bad but it will b yours, right.... so u go and live and live your life:kiss:remember no one can take anything away from u... only u can do that, whether it be ur happiness, ur values, morals,etc., it's who u are in the inside that counts, and we all know u got a good heart:)

Dane22
09-05-2008, 09:22 PM
If you're in a physique competition:

You're showing off your physique
You're not wearing lots of clothing
There's an audience that has paid to see you
You're doing your best because want to receive some sort of reward

By your logic, competing in a physique competition is the same as doing a session, except that you don't get paid for it.

But I think it's depending on the perspective. Any line of work can exploit it's employees. One person's opinion is that webcam or visual (which could be expanded to the stage) is the same as a session.

If you did a traditional job (i.e. fireman) you could be exploited by being sent into the burning building first everytime, right? So likewise, couldn't a bodybuilder (woman or man) be exploited by their sponsors, (just asking)?

I was curious abou what FemFlex said... thats why I asked about the sponsorship

musclefox
09-05-2008, 09:34 PM
I was curious abou what FemFlex said... thats why I asked about the sponsorship



Sorry Dane22.......Actually I'm trying to learn something also. I'm not stating an opinion as much as I'm listening (or reading). :read:

Musclepapa John
09-05-2008, 11:57 PM
I would also be interested to know more about that woman too.

I am not an executive, but I am manager at a Fortune 500 company who is on the top 10 list of medical device companies. I can assure you that if I had pictures of this nature, I would not have been offered the opportunity that I was given. As a women working in the corporate world, that is very much still a boys club, something like this would be very detrimental to my career.

Yet, as was noted in the initial post about your perspective you now have a greater appreciation for the extent of this activity in the sport of bodybuilding, fitness, and figure. Birds of a feather don't really flock together, but some critics of the sport that claim all the ladies on stage behave one way or the other will similarly judge you. Yet, as Peter Potter, NPC Vice Chair informed me in an interview a few months ago, one year all the competitors in the Southern States Masters men were in fact doctors, medical MDs. Those that don't compete likely make the worst assumptions about competitors. Most everyone I've met in the sport is wonderful including competitors, promoters, officials, even vendors, and fans. Regardless, of what goes on off stage when the ladies and gentlemen get on stage their efforts toward diet, exercise, posing, coloring, and stage presence are what we see. I'm glad to be a supporter of such a fine and difficult, but equally rewarding sport and industry. :)

KMS
09-06-2008, 12:10 AM
I'm not really sure why I am going to jump in here but I did want to say to Alli...as always...I really enjoy reading your posts.

I don't webcam. (at this time) LOL No seriously....the one thing over the last year that has just upset me to no end is all of the people that come out of the wood work and judge someone else. PERIOD. I am not picking on the first poster when I say that either but Danielle is going to be bundled in there as well. It's fine to have your opinion and it's fine to have high opinions of yourself and your morals. BUT in no way do I think that someone that does webcam is either not morale or have good values. Someone brought up a good point about going on stage in the bikini...what about the very bare dressed ladies running around the expos. Come on it's webcam in person in most cases. Also just because someone is doing webcam...that does not mean they are getting naked nor does it mean they are talking dirty to someone. I know plenty of people that webcam and don't cross certain lines. What about the people that sleep with others to get ahead in the biz or so they think they will get ahead. Boy never saw that one happen.

The point is the ONLY person that anyone has to answer to is the one staring back in the mirror. I just don't understand this constant need for others to always have to stir pots and worry about what someone else is doing all the time. Don't we all have enough going on in our own lives that we shouldn't have the time to feel compelled to judge others by what we THINK they are doing.

PS.... by the way...if Playboy called tomorrow and wanted me to pose nude for them....my hiney would RUN all the way to California and I would do it for NO money.

Musclepapa John
09-06-2008, 05:15 AM
Being in the buff can be empowering. Why do you think "How to look good naked" required nude shoots sometimes? Or that in certain cases I've read that its been recommended to women with low self esteem or a body hatred to do a nude photo shoot to help gain appreciation for their bodies. Photo shoots make people feel sexy, or wanted, or desired. They do. Because irregardless of the nature the concept of having someone WANT to shoot you makes you think of modeling- which makes you think of desireable attractive people. And that can be empowering. And having someone want to shoot you naked , at your rawest and most vulnerable, can be empowering. To be naked in front of a camera can be intimidating and scary yes, but then you hear "beautiful, drop the chin a little, perfect, wonderful, you look great, this is great, keep it up" and the positive feedback to your nude physique takes a thing of fear and makes it a thing of confidence.

Don't knock it till you try it :)

The socially liberal bone in my body over the years has led me to consider that it would be nice if there weren't public standards of decency and appeals to act godly by religious institutions and particularly some of their leaders who occasionally fall from grace. Then someone such as Sinead O'Connor rips up a picture of the Pope and the uproar it caused was seen to lead the woman to essentially retire from the biz and then apologize and ask Holy Father to forgive her according to Italian newspaper Vita with the explanation that it was "a ridiculous act, the gesture of a girl rebel," which she did "because I was in rebellion against the faith, but I was still within the faith." Some have criticized religion as the tranquilizer of the masses and others believe that really to be television or the internet today. Yet, as with the actual Rule of Law as a philosophy or guiding set of principles for society, people will assign varied values to certain activities, endeavors, and actions. Is that not to be expected as an appropriate course?
To get back to something less philosophical, while you find webcam work more profitable and suitable for your lifestyle should that be espoused as something for everyone to do rather than pursuing a teaching profession, working as a nurse, working in an office, managing or personal training in a gym? When and if the physical beauty fades will you still be able to make a living with webcam? If this is a job where you make great money do you also get paid vacation, personal days, health & disability insurance, 401K or other retirement benefits, pay into Social Security that would allow you to draw later in life if you've paid in enough quarters, and other benefits? Or do you get it all in cash up front with no benefits?
I happen to think you are a wonderful person, commend your personal accomplishments and application of reason to make considerate life choices, BUT believe what we espouse as personal choices and those that should be best prescribed for the broader public aren't always congruent. Likewise, you might not hold yourself out as a role model. Alas, we all are like it or not especially when we espouse particular positions as we do here.

FemFlex
09-06-2008, 01:10 PM
So what does that mean for those that are sponsored??? Is that like session work as well???

:popcorn:
For some...yes, and I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing. Over time, you may come to see that 'sponsorships' come in a variety of flavors.

Some people receive free supplements each month and in exchange, they're expected to sport the company's logo when they're at a competition.

Some people receive supplements, cash, and other considerations and in exchange, they wear the company's gear, making appearances on behalf of the company, and might even be used in the company's advertising campaigns.

Some receive small-to-moderate cash donations from private individuals. The consideration owed in return varies. It may be nothing at all, or maybe the competitor has to join the sponsor for dinner sometime, etc.

Still, there are a handful of others who receive large cash contributions from private individuals. At this level, competitors might be hooked up with cars, homes, travel, expensive gifts...it can get crazy. In return, you could be talking about the occasional private posing, but every Sugar Daddy-Sugar Baby relationship is different. Some may involve a full-time relationship, while others may just require an occasional fling. Many others fall somewhere in-between.

There is one rule of thumb at the highest levels, though. For the men and women who happen to get one of those deals, the level of expectation is almost directly proportional to the amount contributed. If someone is sponsoring you at a rate of $8-10,000/month, believe me, they're not going to want you seeking sponsorship from any other sources.

The above is not all-inclusive, but I hope it does answer your question.

joelster
09-06-2008, 01:40 PM
There is one rule of thumb at the highest levels, though. For the men and women who happen to get one of those deals, the level of expectation is almost directly proportional to the amount contributed. If someone is sponsoring you at a rate of $8-10,000/month, believe me, they're not going to want you seeking sponsorship from any other source.

$8000.00 a month? Wow!

Let me do some math here. I'm gonna pick October simply because there is 31 days :)

$8000.00 divided by 31 = $257 bucks a day! I could swing that for a day or so, lol!

Let me go check the Figure Olympia line up real quick and I'll get back to ya! I'm not sure who I want to pick yet!




(I'm just kidding ;) )

chris10000
09-06-2008, 09:44 PM
you are worried bout job ?
you could become a governor ;)
doing sessions and pornmovies didnt stop the best american politican.

Allen
09-06-2008, 10:23 PM
I agree in some way that being on stage is like being "nude" bcause the fans, men or women think that is attractive (muscle worship) do not need to see you fully nude to be aroused .....Not all webcam work is butt azz nekkid , right?...(correct me if I am wrong here), some customers "get off" by just seeing muscles flexed......

You understand the situation perfectly. This, of course, brings up a whole new ball of wax in the form of fetishes. Not sure if we really want to go there, though.

Alli
09-07-2008, 04:11 PM
Thats your opinion....you cant state that unless youve done both...as a performer

agreed. and you're spot on. in fact that's why session work is referred to as "session work" and camming is referred to as "camming". They are seperate. Many clients on webcam will ask specifically IF the girl does session work in ADDITION to cam work because the two are such seperate ideas and concepts.

Session work is similar in that its one on one and involving someone who loves female muscle, but its entirely different in that its in person, not done over a distance, the pay is FAR greater and many times there is interaction or touch and go contact between the girl and her client. I've NEVER done session work so I can't comment much further...maybe someone on here who has done session work can.

Alli
09-07-2008, 04:18 PM
Also just because someone is doing webcam...that does not mean they are getting naked nor does it mean they are talking dirty to someone. I know plenty of people that webcam and don't cross certain lines.

REALLY good point to make. YOU set your own boundaries on webcam- you dictate your chat rooms, you're in control- you can do and say what you want and your limits are based on your own desires- you DO NOT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING you aren't comfortable with. Women who cam do everything from chatting and posing (same as you'd do for a photo shoot etc) to nude and dirty talking....it's all based on your personal limits.... so to characterize all webcammers as women who talk dirty and get naked is a fairly naive way to look at the overall cam industry. Its widely varietized.

PS.... by the way...if Playboy called tomorrow and wanted me to pose nude for them....my hiney would RUN all the way to California and I would do it for NO money.

You go girl! I'd buy the issue!!!!:bowdown:

Alli
09-07-2008, 04:25 PM
To get back to something less philosophical, while you find webcam work more profitable and suitable for your lifestyle should that be espoused as something for everyone to do rather than pursuing a teaching profession, working as a nurse, working in an office, managing or personal training in a gym? When and if the physical beauty fades will you still be able to make a living with webcam? If this is a job where you make great money do you also get paid vacation, personal days, health & disability insurance, 401K or other retirement benefits, pay into Social Security that would allow you to draw later in life if you've paid in enough quarters, and other benefits? Or do you get it all in cash up front with no benefits?

Whether or not I make a permenant living doing webcam is irrelevant at best. I was merely saying that to cam or not cam, or to pose nude or not nude etc etc is entirely the choice of the individual. Thankfully we live in a country where we are afforded that right. If someone's religious or moral beliefs prevent them from doing that sort of work- I admire and respect them. If a woman feel empowered or enjoys adult work- I admire and respect her too. I admire strong individuals on any level, who follow their OWN hearts, live by their own rules and allow no one outside of themself to make them feel inferior.
And in all honesty how much of how we define ourselves as human beings is derived from our profession? I mean I know that society bases quite a bit of weight on someone's career (lawyer versus janitor syndrome) but I guess personally I see what I do for an income as a very small part of who I am as a person. If people out there want to draw conclusions on my "morals" and "values" from ONLY my means of income...well then I don't feel sorry if they get a bad opinion of me. It's like blanket stating all lawyers are crummy or all janitors are uneducated to say that all webcam performers are slutty or all adult industry workers have bad morals. Individuality changes that landscape and as I said, if someone wants to judge me solely based on what I do for income- that's their choice.... I feel sorry for those that narrow minded.

Musclepapa John
09-07-2008, 05:11 PM
Whether or not I make a permenant living doing webcam is irrelevant at best. I was merely saying that to cam or not cam, or to pose nude or not nude etc etc is entirely the choice of the individual. Thankfully we live in a country where we are afforded that right. If someone's religious or moral beliefs prevent them from doing that sort of work- I admire and respect them. If a woman feel empowered or enjoys adult work- I admire and respect her too. I admire strong individuals on any level, who follow their OWN hearts, live by their own rules and allow no one outside of themself to make them feel inferior.
And in all honesty how much of how we define ourselves as human beings is derived from our profession? I mean I know that society bases quite a bit of weight on someone's career (lawyer versus janitor syndrome) but I guess personally I see what I do for an income as a very small part of who I am as a person. If people out there want to draw conclusions on my "morals" and "values" from ONLY my means of income...well then I don't feel sorry if they get a bad opinion of me. It's like blanket stating all lawyers are crummy or all janitors are uneducated to say that all webcam performers are slutty or all adult industry workers have bad morals. Individuality changes that landscape and as I said, if someone wants to judge me solely based on what I do for income- that's their choice.... I feel sorry for those that narrow minded.


There are obviously consequences to our choices and while you note it is immaterial if you can make a “permenant living doing webcam” that would seem to suggest you are living for the moment? Why is that? You probably have a better education that many that read your words and are looked up to. Your views impact others lives and probably their life choices.
I believe judgement calls and decision making are somewhat synonymous although judging others according to Christian and some other religious doctrine is not advisable. Yet, even non-religious humanism prescribes human dignity and self worth by our ability to rationally distinguish between right and wrong (ethical/moral judgement). Is it wrong or narrow-minded for families to want the best for their children and for them to be lawyers possibly rather than janitors? Is it wrong to prefer marrying a lawyer versus a janitor?
Is it wrong that while many strippers do it for the money and possibly excitement and compliments that we continue to see reports claiming they are victims with supposedly a large percentage of them having been physically abused as children and with few options to support themselves and their children? I tend to disagree that on the whole they are victims, but there are good reasons why institutions in society promote these positions, as they can’t afford in our politically correct environment to be overly critical of their actions, but likewise can’t condone what society opposes. The same goes for recreational drug use. There is a thin line that can be crossed where those defending their lifestyles actually begin promoting their choices for others. Then it is advocacy for a social change that may be an affront to the traditions of the mainstream and existing social order. I’d bet you could make twice or three times as much money if you applied your heart to your intellectual and academic abilities. And it is always better to get on track when you are young versus taking the more traveled road now.

joelster
09-07-2008, 06:00 PM
There are obviously consequences to our choices and while you note it is immaterial if you can make a “permenant living doing webcam” that would seem to suggest you are living for the moment? Why is that? You probably have a better education that many that read your words and are looked up to. Your views impact others lives and probably their life choices.
I believe judgement calls and decision making are somewhat synonymous although judging others according to Christian and some other religious doctrine is not advisable. Yet, even non-religious humanism prescribes human dignity and self worth by our ability to rationally distinguish between right and wrong (ethical/moral judgement). Is it wrong or narrow-minded for families to want the best for their children and for them to be lawyers possibly rather than janitors? Is it wrong to prefer marrying a lawyer versus a janitor?
Is it wrong that while many strippers do it for the money and possibly excitement and compliments that we continue to see reports claiming they are victims with supposedly a large percentage of them having been physically abused as children and with few options to support themselves and their children? I tend to disagree that on the whole they are victims, but there are good reasons why institutions in society promote these positions, as they can’t afford in our politically correct environment to be overly critical of their actions, but likewise can’t condone what society opposes. The same goes for recreational drug use. There is a thin line that can be crossed where those defending their lifestyles actually begin promoting their choices for others. Then it is advocacy for a social change that may be an affront to the traditions of the mainstream and existing social order. I’d bet you could make twice or three times as much money if you applied your heart to your intellectual and academic abilities. And it is always better to get on track when you are young versus taking the more traveled road now.

That's a great post!

For the part that I bolded, let me give a little insight. Alli is relatively young, and in excellent shape. If she were to STOP training and focus solely on a 9-5 career, it is entirely possible (and likely) that she would find herself down a white-collar career path making great money, with a lot of stability in her life. It wouldn't happen overnite and would take several years of busting her ass, but it is entirely feasible. So, I guess at that point in her life she would have "made it" so to speak.

HOWEVER, a big part of her would be burning inside, wondering if she would have had what it takes to turn Pro in figure, which is another lofty goal. This would burn in the back of her brain the rest of her life. She can't be competitve working 50+ hours a week AT THIS MOMENT, so she is doing what it takes to achieve the Pro card. The webcam stuff fits PERFECTLY into the time schedule.

Musclepapa John
09-07-2008, 06:21 PM
That's a great post!

For the part that I bolded, let me give a little insight. Alli is relatively young, and in excellent shape. If she were to STOP training and focus solely on a 9-5 career, it is entirely possible (and likely) that she would find herself down a white-collar career path making great money, with a lot of stability in her life. It wouldn't happen overnite and would take several years of busting her ass, but it is entirely feasible. So, I guess at that point in her life she would have "made it" so to speak.

HOWEVER, a big part of her would be burning inside, wondering if she would have had what it takes to turn Pro in figure, which is another lofty goal. This would burn in the back of her brain the rest of her life. She can't be competitve working 50+ hours a week AT THIS MOMENT, so she is doing what it takes to achieve the Pro card. The webcam stuff fits PERFECTLY into the time schedule.

Alli should certainly choose whatever path she concludes is most appropriate for her and she is certainly the best qualified to make such decisions with the support of those with her best interests at heart. With regard to necessities associated with "turning pro" though I'd note it has been done by others with demanding careers correct? Plus, I'd not put other life goals on hold till turning pro winning the Olympia even as there tend to be little profits made via the pro ranks for the overwhelming majority of the ladies. Regardless, I hope Alli like all the other ladies here are able to accomplish their goals on stage, in the business world and private life.

ambydawn
09-07-2008, 08:11 PM
You guys seem to interpret having a good career and making a lot of money as the ultimate goal. Money is a necessity if you want to have a comfortable life (particularly if you compete, geez that is expensive) but having a high-paying, respectable job is not going to bring anyone happiness. Snoring through your whole life just to make mom and dad or the people on your block think you are successful sounds like a hollow life to me.
I commend Alli for giving up a stable job to follow her dreams, regardless of what she does to earn income. Even if she doesn't "go pro," she will know she gave all her heart to pursue her goals.
From my personal experience... I quit my stable "respectable" job as a reporter a few years ago to pursue a completely different career path in nutrition and fitness. Everybody told me I was out of my mind, but I can't tell you how many pulled me aside and told me how they admired that I was willing to throw it all away to follow my heart. I heard so many "If I could, I would..." I won't live my life thinking like that!
I'm sorry to go slightly off-topic, but it seems like the underlying message is whether web-camming or doing sessions is a stable and respectable way to earn money. What a boring place the world would be if we all followed that path!
Oh, and I think there is a big difference between being comfortable with your own actions and promoting the same thing for others... I don't remember anyone saying it was a great job and recruiting others, just that everyone has to make his/her own decision based on their personal value system.

Musclepapa John
09-07-2008, 08:23 PM
You guys seem to interpret having a good career and making a lot of money as the ultimate goal. Money is a necessity if you want to have a comfortable life (particularly if you compete, geez that is expensive) but having a high-paying, respectable job is not going to bring anyone happiness. Snoring through your whole life just to make mom and dad or the people on your block think you are successful sounds like a hollow life to me.
I commend Alli for giving up a stable job to follow her dreams, regardless of what she does to earn income. Even if she doesn't "go pro," she will know she gave all her heart to pursue her goals.
From my personal experience... I quit my stable "respectable" job as a reporter a few years ago to pursue a completely different career path in nutrition and fitness. Everybody told me I was out of my mind, but I can't tell you how many pulled me aside and told me how they admired that I was willing to throw it all away to follow my heart. I heard so many "If I could, I would..." I won't live my life thinking like that!
I'm sorry to go slightly off-topic, but it seems like the underlying message is whether web-camming or doing sessions is a stable and respectable way to earn money. What a boring place the world would be if we all followed that path!
Oh, and I think there is a big difference between being comfortable with your own actions and promoting the same thing for others... I don't remember anyone saying it was a great job and recruiting others, just that everyone has to make his/her own decision based on their personal value system.

I largely agree. Mainstream pubs tend to ballyhoo story angles on bodybuilding, fitness, and figure relating to drug abuse, and other criminal activity. I use my journalism BA to promote the positive attributes through photo, web, video, and the written word. Call me crazy I reckon as the money ain't great, lol. :nuts:

Alli
09-08-2008, 02:16 AM
Okay... as I said in a previous post I believe I do have my undergrad degree... a double major in Wellness/Sport Science and then English (of all things lol) and then a minor in athletic coaching. I also am a certified aerobic instructor and personal trainer and I have a certification in sport nutrition. Oh and I do volunteer work for a YWCA so I'm a certified sexual assault and domestic violence educator. phew.

At any rate I guess what I should say is this: I worked for a full year after college in a "9-5" job that drove me nuts. I made 32,000 a year, worked too many hours, had a 45 minute commute each way to work AND to top it off, was a mess while trying to diet and train for a show. I now work LESS hours, get paid more per hour I work doing cam, and I have the time needed to train and compete. Oh and I don't commute I work from home. :) To me that is the ultimate freedom. I have free time to volunteer with the YWCA, help out with my friend's new baby, and to do my OTHER side jobs which are running my website of course, AND being a personal trainer:)... I still do that!

For me- I'm far too active to be content in a desk job and in the area I live in most jobs in the fitness industry are grossly underpaid.... think 40,000 or less per year and when you factor into that that I'm single, live alone, pay for EVERYTHING myself including my competition expenses... I simply need more income.

Will I cam forever? probably not but I know women who are in their 40's and camming so who knows. But if I don't cam forever... I have my degree and my brains to fall back on.

:)

Alli
09-08-2008, 02:18 AM
That's a great post!

For the part that I bolded, let me give a little insight. Alli is relatively young, and in excellent shape. If she were to STOP training and focus solely on a 9-5 career, it is entirely possible (and likely) that she would find herself down a white-collar career path making great money, with a lot of stability in her life. It wouldn't happen overnite and would take several years of busting her ass, but it is entirely feasible. So, I guess at that point in her life she would have "made it" so to speak.

HOWEVER, a big part of her would be burning inside, wondering if she would have had what it takes to turn Pro in figure, which is another lofty goal. This would burn in the back of her brain the rest of her life. She can't be competitve working 50+ hours a week AT THIS MOMENT, so she is doing what it takes to achieve the Pro card. The webcam stuff fits PERFECTLY into the time schedule.


EXACTLY. Camming cultivates my competition and frees me up to pay attention to other areas of my life- resulting in a less stressed and more free Alli lol.

ibarramedia
09-08-2008, 02:24 AM
That's a great post!

For the part that I bolded, let me give a little insight. Alli is relatively young, and in excellent shape. If she were to STOP training and focus solely on a 9-5 career, it is entirely possible (and likely) that she would find herself down a white-collar career path making great money, with a lot of stability in her life. It wouldn't happen overnite and would take several years of busting her ass, but it is entirely feasible. So, I guess at that point in her life she would have "made it" so to speak.

HOWEVER, a big part of her would be burning inside, wondering if she would have had what it takes to turn Pro in figure, which is another lofty goal. This would burn in the back of her brain the rest of her life. She can't be competitve working 50+ hours a week AT THIS MOMENT, so she is doing what it takes to achieve the Pro card. The webcam stuff fits PERFECTLY into the time schedule.


I agree with what you said, especially the highlighted text.

xena
09-08-2008, 09:27 AM
Whether or not I make a permenant living doing webcam is irrelevant at best. I was merely saying that to cam or not cam, or to pose nude or not nude etc etc is entirely the choice of the individual. Thankfully we live in a country where we are afforded that right. If someone's religious or moral beliefs prevent them from doing that sort of work- I admire and respect them. If a woman feel empowered or enjoys adult work- I admire and respect her too. I admire strong individuals on any level, who follow their OWN hearts, live by their own rules and allow no one outside of themself to make them feel inferior.
And in all honesty how much of how we define ourselves as human beings is derived from our profession? I mean I know that society bases quite a bit of weight on someone's career (lawyer versus janitor syndrome) but I guess personally I see what I do for an income as a very small part of who I am as a person. If people out there want to draw conclusions on my "morals" and "values" from ONLY my means of income...well then I don't feel sorry if they get a bad opinion of me. It's like blanket stating all lawyers are crummy or all janitors are uneducated to say that all webcam performers are slutty or all adult industry workers have bad morals. Individuality changes that landscape and as I said, if someone wants to judge me solely based on what I do for income- that's their choice.... I feel sorry for those that narrow minded.


Alli -

So beautifully and eloquently said. I wish I had had the kahoonies to follow my dreams instead of getting caught up in a 9-5 type of job within the ever-political corporate world. At this point, I just want to make it through the next few years and then retire to pursue things I have a passion for.

I, like you, feel too much is placed upon a person's worth and identity by what they do for a "living". Working in the environment I work in, more emphasis is placed upon how many degrees you have, along with where you live and what type of car you drive instead of who you are inside and what is within your heart.

I commend you for your spunk and for knowing at such a young age what it is you want in life and what matters most for YOU! :respect:

FemFlex
09-08-2008, 02:49 PM
Alli, your posts are always so eloquent and insightful and I believe it is because you're educated and express yourself so well that some of the naysayers are upset.

They don't want a woman with youth, a college degree, tremendous work ethic, and so many other things going in her favor to be a webcam performer. They want to be able to lecture her on what she should be doing to 'better herself', etc. but you stand as proof positive as someone who has been successful in multiple areas of your life and who still has tons of opportunities open to you.

:clap:

ambydawn
09-08-2008, 06:26 PM
I largely agree. Mainstream pubs tend to ballyhoo story angles on bodybuilding, fitness, and figure relating to drug abuse, and other criminal activity. I use my journalism BA to promote the positive attributes through photo, web, video, and the written word. Call me crazy I reckon as the money ain't great, lol. :nuts:

Haha, the money is NOT great at all! I just meant that it was a mostly stable job that always impressed people (at least those who weren't familiar with the actual job ;)). I don't miss it at all.
Now I see why you always post such random philosophical posts...

Alli
09-08-2008, 06:45 PM
Alli, your posts are always so eloquent and insightful and I believe it is because you're educated and express yourself so well that some of the naysayers are upset.

They don't want a woman with youth, a college degree, tremendous work ethic, and so many other things going in her favor to be a webcam performer. They want to be able to lecture her on what she should be doing to 'better herself', etc. but you stand as proof positive as someone who has been successful in multiple areas of your life and who still has tons of opportunities open to you.

:clap:

Thanks Tre:) As always you and I tend to ride a similar wavelength hehe.

But that's my point- webcam girls aren't necessrily uneducated or slutty... just as adult industry personnel aren't absent of moral value... I think that this thread got so far off topic its insane. I merely wanted to say that EVERYONE has a different set of boundaries and limitations. Everyone has a different picture of what it means to live their life and to be successful. If you are a personl who derives feelings of fullfillment from a 9-5 job I commend you for following your dreams and knowing your heart. I am not personally someone who derives my sanity from my work- I feel my success lies inside me and with who I am as a person...my work ethic and my feelings of fullfillment come from killer training sessions or from seeing satisfied clients. We all need to live our lives the way WE want...and then be content to let others do the same.

Differences of opinion are one thing- but to get on a board like this (which is meant to foster growth and communication between each other) and bash someone for working in the adult industry, to me, is childish and narrow minded. And unfair. Live your life let others live theirs and be content to understand that you're ENTITLED to your opinion but it is simply that- your opinion. nothing more. it's not a law, not a rule, not a regulation others are meant to follow. Hollering at someone cause you don't agree with them is simply immature. The mature thing to do is to recognize its simply a difference of opinion and be content to agree to disagree.

Badgergrl
09-08-2008, 07:13 PM
Very well put, Alli.
I'm a pretty opinionated person...I know exactly where I stand on most issues, and I've been told that I come across too strong with that sometimes.
Regardless of my own feelings, I know that I have to allow others the same freedom to express their opinions because the minute I don't allow that, I lose my own freedom to do so.
What a boring world this would be if we all agreed on everything anyway.

Re: Tre's comment on people not wanting to see an educated, well-to-do woman doing this type of work: I think the traits you mentioned, and that Alli seems to exhibit, are ones that are needed to be successful in any area of life. It doesn't matter the type of work; I think for a person to succeed in any industry, he or she must embody the qualities of a successful person.

Dane22
09-08-2008, 07:32 PM
Sorry Dane22.......Actually I'm trying to learn something also. I'm not stating an opinion as much as I'm listening (or reading). :read:
No problem... I'm learning too:)
For some...yes, and I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing. Over time, you may come to see that 'sponsorships' come in a variety of flavors.

Some people receive free supplements each month and in exchange, they're expected to sport the company's logo when they're at a competition.

Some people receive supplements, cash, and other considerations and in exchange, they wear the company's gear, making appearances on behalf of the company, and might even be used in the company's advertising campaigns.

Some receive small-to-moderate cash donations from private individuals. The consideration owed in return varies. It may be nothing at all, or maybe the competitor has to join the sponsor for dinner sometime, etc.

Still, there are a handful of others who receive large cash contributions from private individuals. At this level, competitors might be hooked up with cars, homes, travel, expensive gifts...it can get crazy. In return, you could be talking about the occasional private posing, but every Sugar Daddy-Sugar Baby relationship is different. Some may involve a full-time relationship, while others may just require an occasional fling. Many others fall somewhere in-between.

There is one rule of thumb at the highest levels, though. For the men and women who happen to get one of those deals, the level of expectation is almost directly proportional to the amount contributed. If someone is sponsoring you at a rate of $8-10,000/month, believe me, they're not going to want you seeking sponsorship from any other sources.

The above is not all-inclusive, but I hope it does answer your question.

Thank you, that clarified alot:D

Grade "A" Four cornered s
09-08-2008, 08:35 PM
Thanks Tre:) As always you and I tend to ride a similar wavelength hehe.

But that's my point- webcam girls aren't necessrily uneducated or slutty... just as adult industry personnel aren't absent of moral value... I think that this thread got so far off topic its insane. I merely wanted to say that EVERYONE has a different set of boundaries and limitations. Everyone has a different picture of what it means to live their life and to be successful. If you are a personl who derives feelings of fullfillment from a 9-5 job I commend you for following your dreams and knowing your heart. I am not personally someone who derives my sanity from my work- I feel my success lies inside me and with who I am as a person...my work ethic and my feelings of fullfillment come from killer training sessions or from seeing satisfied clients. We all need to live our lives the way WE want...and then be content to let others do the same.

Differences of opinion are one thing- but to get on a board like this (which is meant to foster growth and communication between each other) and bash someone for working in the adult industry, to me, is childish and narrow minded. And unfair. Live your life let others live theirs and be content to understand that you're ENTITLED to your opinion but it is simply that- your opinion. nothing more. it's not a law, not a rule, not a regulation others are meant to follow. Hollering at someone cause you don't agree with them is simply immature. The mature thing to do is to recognize its simply a difference of opinion and be content to agree to disagree.

Major props to you, Allison:respect::bowdown:. Sadly, not everyone shares your insight and intelligence. But as long as you do, that's very important.

ibarramedia
09-08-2008, 08:51 PM
Very well put, Alli.
I'm a pretty opinionated person...I know exactly where I stand on most issues, and I've been told that I come across too strong with that sometimes.
Regardless of my own feelings, I know that I have to allow others the same freedom to express their opinions because the minute I don't allow that, I lose my own freedom to do so.
What a boring world this would be if we all agreed on everything anyway.

Re: Tre's comment on people not wanting to see an educated, well-to-do woman doing this type of work: I think the traits you mentioned, and that Alli seems to exhibit, are ones that are needed to be successful in any area of life. It doesn't matter the type of work; I think for a person to succeed in any industry, he or she must embody the qualities of a successful person.


Agreed with Alli and Maryann....

Musclepapa John
09-08-2008, 11:59 PM
Differences of opinion are one thing- but to get on a board like this (which is meant to foster growth and communication between each other) and bash someone for working in the adult industry, to me, is childish and narrow minded. And unfair. Live your life let others live theirs and be content to understand that you're ENTITLED to your opinion but it is simply that- your opinion. nothing more. it's not a law, not a rule, not a regulation others are meant to follow. Hollering at someone cause you don't agree with them is simply immature. The mature thing to do is to recognize its simply a difference of opinion and be content to agree to disagree.

Seems you are demonizing those that voice an opinion you disagree with. There is a fairly sizable debate on the periphery of the subjects addressed in this thread as to whether or not most of the women in the sports of bodybuilding, fitness, and figure are also in the adult industry. While the answer may not be of interest to you it is in fact of interest to many ladies who don't want to be similarly categorized. Likewise, the male counterparts of the sport who largely control the IFBB and NPC purse strings talk about this issue and much, much more regarding the ladies side of the sport. They likewise make decisions that impact the women participating in the sport from local shows up to the Olympia. Rumors swirl about regarding some ladies sleeping with various officials to move up the ranks. How can we expect that to cause the ladies feel that accomplish it on stage as prescribed via all the rigors involved?
What I'm leading up to is that with a forum like Siouxcountry.com where ladies in the sport can come together you all might have a tremendous combined voice to effect change in the industry itself for better or worse. How much respect might you garner as a group and what gains might be accrued? The status quo if fine for me, but is it for you? If ladies in the sport want to demonstrate that it is not true that the majority go into the adult industry demonstrate then by being the living proof.

Musclepapa John
09-09-2008, 12:23 AM
Haha, the money is NOT great at all! I just meant that it was a mostly stable job that always impressed people (at least those who weren't familiar with the actual job ;)). I don't miss it at all.
Now I see why you always post such random philosophical posts...

I feel ya. "Random philosophical posts,"...as I'm something of an existentialist butting my head against the same confining social order as the rest of the species. I've done it enough to try and discourage others from the same course (minored in philosophy, lol).:kiss:

Grade "A" Four cornered s
09-09-2008, 12:51 AM
I disagree, John, with your statement that Allison is "demonizing" those who disagree with her. On the contrary, you were the one who brought up the issue of Allison using her degrees toward having a 9-5 job which she has said she wouldn't be happy with. Bottom line, Allison is an adult and is free to make her choices, even if others disagree with them, which it seems you do.

Musclepapa John
09-09-2008, 01:24 AM
I disagree, John, with your statement that Allison is "demonizing" those who disagree with her. On the contrary, you were the one who brought up the issue of Allison using her degrees toward having a 9-5 job which she has said she wouldn't be happy with. Bottom line, Allison is an adult and is free to make her choices, even if others disagree with them, which it seems you do.

The phrases and terms she chose to describe those she disagrees with in the section I quoted and referred to as demonizing were, ""bash someone for working in the adult industry", childish, narrow minded, unfair, hollering, and immature.""

Whether we disagree or not I don't believe results in being logically considered bashers, childish, narrow-minded, unfair, immature hollerers. I could be wrong, but that still would not necessarily cause me to be appropriately categorized per the above descriptors. :)

musclefox
09-09-2008, 01:58 AM
So people are not "defined" by their jobs. And if you don't like Alli's job, then you should say that: "I don't like alli's job", (your opinion) which is not offensive to Alli because you don't know her based on her job. If you care about her....perhaps you could express love for her through "concern" and not accusations?

Musclepapa John
09-09-2008, 03:09 AM
So people are not "defined" by their jobs. And if you don't like Alli's job, then you should say that: "I don't like alli's job", (your opinion) which is not offensive to Alli because you don't know her based on her job. If you care about her....perhaps you could express love for her through "concern" and not accusations?

Terrific point. :kiss: And I render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s,...:)

HDPhysiques-Joe
09-09-2008, 09:09 AM
Alli, your posts are always so eloquent and insightful and I believe it is because you're educated and express yourself so well that some of the naysayers are upset.

They don't want a woman with youth, a college degree, tremendous work ethic, and so many other things going in her favor to be a webcam performer. They want to be able to lecture her on what she should be doing to 'better herself', etc. but you stand as proof positive as someone who has been successful in multiple areas of your life and who still has tons of opportunities open to you.

:clap:

Agree 100%

HDPhysiques-Joe
09-09-2008, 09:17 AM
I disagree, John, with your statement that Allison is "demonizing" those who disagree with her. On the contrary, you were the one who brought up the issue of Allison using her degrees toward having a 9-5 job which she has said she wouldn't be happy with. Bottom line, Allison is an adult and is free to make her choices, even if others disagree with them, which it seems you do.

I don't think John :angel: is going to be happy until 1) he's the only person making any money in the industry, and 2) - all the girls are fully clothed 100% of the time and do nothing remotely sexy.

LOL

Musclepapa John
09-09-2008, 12:11 PM
I don't think John :angel: is going to be happy until 1) he's the only person making any money in the industry, and 2) - all the girls are fully clothed 100% of the time and do nothing remotely sexy.

LOL

lol, interesting point. If this is really about industry maybe it should be in the industry section? And I'm less profit driven related to this sport than many, but the sport and the adult-industry aren't synonymous are they? And as for wanting the ladies all clothed nothing could be farther from the truth. I even lean toward eliminating the one-piece round for figure, but that ain't my call or the ladies apparently, lol.

Femphysiquefan
09-09-2008, 01:58 PM
I feel ya. "Random philosophical posts,"...as I'm something of an existentialist butting my head against the same confining social order as the rest of the species. I've done it enough to try and discourage others from the same course (minored in philosophy, lol).:kiss:

What's wrong with philosophy?? It's the most important academic discipline there is, and the most important subject out there. Don't be ashamed of being associated with the great philosophers of history!!! :D

In regards to philosophy, many people on this thread have been touting the presently accepted tenets of moral relativism as being practically axiomatic, and then applying them to the subject of adult-oriented activities in the fitness industry. However, I believe that a few things need to be brought up, and I think MJ tried to do so already but here goes:

1. EVERYONE, BY DEFAULT, IS JUDGMENTAL. You cannot in any way, shape or form declare anyone to be in the right or in the wrong on ANY topic and not make a judgment. It is therefore ridiculous and contradictory to say "you shouldn't be judgmental of others," for this statement in and of itself is a judgment (the person is making the judgment that judgmental people are in the wrong). In terms of the originally thread subject, Tre' and Alli and all those who agree with them have made the judgment that they are in the right; those whom they disagree with they have judged to be in the wrong. The exacy same thing is true for those who disagree with Tre' and Alli. Disagreement or agreement is a complete impossibility without bringing judgment to bear. It really is that simple, so let's please give up this nonsense about not judging other people since each of us does it all the time every day.

2. EVERYONE, TO ONE DEGREE OR ANOTHER, FORCES THEIR BELIEFS OR VALUES UPON OTHER PEOPLE. Don't believe me?? Consider the posts that have been made so far. Every one of them reflects the belief system of the person making the post, because they are saying what they do or do not believe in. It is therefore again ridiculous and contradictory to say "you shouldn't force your beliefs upon other people," because again this statement is something the person making it believes in (in making this statement, a person forces upon other people one of their beliefs). Furthermore, what woman in this forum has any problem forcing their beliefs concerning rape upon the rapists in the form of supporting the creation of laws that make rape illegal?? Or forcing their beliefs about freedom and democracy on the fascists in our country?? Name your belief on ANY topic, and there are one or more people working overtime to force that belief upon other people, if and when you aren't doing it yourself. Again, in terms of thread subject Tre' and Alli, by posting what they believe about adult-oriented activities in the fitness industry, have in fact forced what they believe upon everyone else in the thread (and in the board, for that matter). Again, same thing for those who disagree with Tre' and Alli. So again, please let's get rid of the nonsense about not forcing beliefs on others, because all of us do it every single time we express our POV on any topic.

One thing I have most definitely learned in life is that pride really makes it hard sometimes to realize the truth about a situation, and that there is much to be said about humility in ITS ability to make us more aware about ourselves. The way I see it, this debate all comes down to pride. Simple, stupid, arrogant pride on BOTH sides. I say that knowing full well what I've posted on other threads concerning this subject, but leave it to Mr. Eckstut to show me the effect of pride upon my thinking (thank you, BTW :D). From my life experience there are five little sentences that, due to pride, human beings will do absolutely anything in their power to avoid saying and meaning. These are:

1. "I'm wrong."
2. "It's my fault."
3. "I've been fooled."
4. "I need help."
5. "I'm sorry."

I would like to suggest that BOTH sides might take a step back for a moment; realize that due to our pride and arrogance our default position on ANY topic is "I'm right in everything I believe in, and everyone who disagrees with me is wrong."; allow for the possibility that pride may be in fact clouding your mind to the truth, and that humitily is the better course of action; and at least be open to the possibility that #1 may in fact apply to YOU and NOT those who disagree with you. And hey, saying #5 to someone on the board can't hurt either, especially if your discussion has taken a turn for the worst in terms of civility. :D

Oh yeah, and in regards to what I believe about our current climate of moral relativism, I'll leave you with the words of the great British author and lecturer G.K.Chesterton:

"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.":angel:

anglicanbeachparty
09-09-2008, 02:24 PM
Good post, Jeremy. :popcorn:

HDPhysiques-Joe
09-09-2008, 02:56 PM
Jeremy,

Please reduce the length of that post by about 50% or more, then I'll consider reading it.

Thanks.

Femphysiquefan
09-09-2008, 02:57 PM
Jeremy,

Please reduce the length of that post by about 50% or more, then I'll consider reading it.

Thanks.

If you'll look back on the thread some of Alli's posts are twice the length of mine, and you've apparently had no problem reading those or made any such expression towards her to shorten her posts. Why do I have to be the one to shorten mine?? :confused:

FemFlex
09-09-2008, 03:22 PM
If you'll look back on the thread some of Alli's posts are twice the length of mine, and you've apparently had no problem reading those or made any such expression towards her to shorten her posts. Why do I have to be the one to shorten mine?? :confused:
1) Alli is hot, because she's well-spoken and has a college degree.

2) Alli is hot, because she's got a mind of her own and makes her own decisions for HER life.

3) Alli is hot, because she has the discipline to bust her butt week in, week out in the gym and in the kitchen.

4) Alli is hot, because she has no problem telling the prudes out there to kiss her luscious ass. :p

Any other questions?

FemFlex
09-09-2008, 03:32 PM
What's wrong with philosophy?? It's the most important academic discipline there is, and the most important subject out there. Don't be ashamed of being associated with the great philosophers of history!!! :D

In regards to philosophy, many people on this thread have been touting the presently accepted tenets of moral relativism as being practically axiomatic, and then applying them to the subject of adult-oriented activities in the fitness industry. However, I believe that a few things need to be brought up, and I think MJ tried to do so already but here goes:

1. EVERYONE, BY DEFAULT, IS JUDGMENTAL. You cannot in any way, shape or form declare anyone to be in the right or in the wrong on ANY topic and not make a judgment. It is therefore ridiculous and contradictory to say "you shouldn't be judgmental of others," for this statement in and of itself is a judgment (the person is making the judgment that judgmental people are in the wrong). In terms of the originally thread subject, Tre' and Alli and all those who agree with them have made the judgment that they are in the right; those whom they disagree with they have judged to be in the wrong. The exacy same thing is true for those who disagree with Tre' and Alli. Disagreement or agreement is a complete impossibility without bringing judgment to bear. It really is that simple, so let's please give up this nonsense about not judging other people since each of us does it all the time every day.

2. EVERYONE, TO ONE DEGREE OR ANOTHER, FORCES THEIR BELIEFS OR VALUES UPON OTHER PEOPLE. Don't believe me?? Consider the posts that have been made so far. Every one of them reflects the belief system of the person making the post, because they are saying what they do or do not believe in. It is therefore again ridiculous and contradictory to say "you shouldn't force your beliefs upon other people," because again this statement is something the person making it believes in (in making this statement, a person forces upon other people one of their beliefs). Furthermore, what woman in this forum has any problem forcing their beliefs concerning rape upon the rapists in the form of supporting the creation of laws that make rape illegal?? Or forcing their beliefs about freedom and democracy on the fascists in our country?? Name your belief on ANY topic, and there are one or more people working overtime to force that belief upon other people, if and when you aren't doing it yourself. Again, in terms of thread subject Tre' and Alli, by posting what they believe about adult-oriented activities in the fitness industry, have in fact forced what they believe upon everyone else in the thread (and in the board, for that matter). Again, same thing for those who disagree with Tre' and Alli. So again, please let's get rid of the nonsense about not forcing beliefs on others, because all of us do it every single time we express our POV on any topic.

One thing I have most definitely learned in life is that pride really makes it hard sometimes to realize the truth about a situation, and that there is much to be said about humility in ITS ability to make us more aware about ourselves. The way I see it, this debate all comes down to pride. Simple, stupid, arrogant pride on BOTH sides. I say that knowing full well what I've posted on other threads concerning this subject, but leave it to Mr. Eckstut to show me the effect of pride upon my thinking (thank you, BTW :D). From my life experience there are five little sentences that, due to pride, human beings will do absolutely anything in their power to avoid saying and meaning. These are:

1. "I'm wrong."
2. "It's my fault."
3. "I've been fooled."
4. "I need help."
5. "I'm sorry."

I would like to suggest that BOTH sides might take a step back for a moment; realize that due to our pride and arrogance our default position on ANY topic is "I'm right in everything I believe in, and everyone who disagrees with me is wrong."; allow for the possibility that pride may be in fact clouding your mind to the truth, and that humitily is the better course of action; and at least be open to the possibility that #1 may in fact apply to YOU and NOT those who disagree with you. And hey, saying #5 to someone on the board can't hurt either, especially if your discussion has taken a turn for the worst in terms of civility. :D

Oh yeah, and in regards to what I believe about our current climate of moral relativism, I'll leave you with the words of the great British author and lecturer G.K.Chesterton:

"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.":angel:

Good post, Jeremy.

In America, whenever a person poses in any state of nudeness, for whatever reason, there are people who will take issue with it.

The person doing the posing is merely doing what he/she wants to do. I don't think they rises to the level of 'forcing beliefs' on anyone, though, as compared to the naysayers who come with the 'You shouldn't do that', 'It's wrong', 'Don't you have any self-respect?' rhetoric.

musclefox
09-09-2008, 04:36 PM
Jeremy,

Please reduce the length of that post by about 50% or more, then I'll consider reading it.

Thanks.



The man's gotta good point y'all. Sometimes saying less is more.....just a tip for life in general.

But FemphysiqueFan has an excellent point about pride. It'll kill ya' if you don't "check" it....

Femphysiquefan
09-09-2008, 04:38 PM
1) Alli is hot, because she's well-spoken and has a college degree.

2) Alli is hot, because she's got a mind of her own and makes her own decisions for HER life.

3) Alli is hot, because she has the discipline to bust her butt week in, week out in the gym and in the kitchen.

4) Alli is hot, because she has no problem telling the prudes out there to kiss her luscious ass. :p

Any other questions?

Yep, I've got a couple of rhetorical ones:

1. When did I ever say that any of that about Alli wasn't true, including the fact that she is "hot?" (answer:NEVER) :angel:

2. What does the length of my post have to do with Alli being any or all of those things, including "hot?" (answer:the same thing that the American GNP has to do with the extinction of Carcharodon Megalodon, that being absolutely nothing) :p

Femphysiquefan
09-09-2008, 04:48 PM
Good post, Jeremy.

In America, whenever a person poses in any state of nudeness, for whatever reason, there are people who will take issue with it.

The person doing the posing is merely doing what he/she wants to do. I don't think they rises to the level of 'forcing beliefs' on anyone, though, as compared to the naysayers who come with the rhetoric.

See, Joe?? Guys CAN read long paragraphs after all, even without pictures. If Tre' can do it I KNOW you can. You just gotta TRY, big guy!! :p

Absolutely right about people taking issue with just about anything, Tre'. People would have an issue with these sports even if ALL the ladies WEREN'T involved in the adult stuff as well. However, my point was that those of the "it's OK," "There's nothing immoral about it" or "I have self-respect, kiss off!!" rhetoric are forcing their beliefs on other people just as much as the 'You shouldn't do that', 'It's wrong', 'Don't you have any self-respect?' crowd. It may not be as obvious at first, but when you think about it you realize that BOTH sides are guilty of the same thing, and this issue of muscleladies being involved in the adult industry is no exception. So, why accuse someone of doing something when I'm guilty of doing the exact same thing?? There's no point.

musclefox
09-09-2008, 04:57 PM
See, Joe?? Guys CAN read long paragraphs after all, even without pictures. If Tre' can do it I KNOW you can. You just gotta TRY, big guy!! :p

Absolutely right about people taking issue with just about anything, Tre'. People would have an issue with these sports even if ALL the ladies WEREN'T involved in the adult stuff as well. However, my point was that those of the "it's OK," "There's nothing immoral about it" or "I have self-respect, kiss off!!" rhetoric are forcing their beliefs on other people just as much as the 'You shouldn't do that', 'It's wrong', 'Don't you have any self-respect?' crowd. It may not be as obvious at first, but when you think about it you realize that BOTH sides are guilty of the same thing, and this issue of muscleladies being involved in the adult industry is no exception. So, why accuse someone of doing something when I'm guilty of doing the exact same thing?? There's no point.


So maybe the answer (or the attempt to find the answer) lies in 'separating the person from the industry'. So whether the occupation is moral or immoral, doesn't have any reflection on alli's self-worth. So if we "judge the job"...that's o.k. because it's an in-animate object. But no one can "judge the person". After all, that's alot of pressure on anyone to have to judge someone else (as a person). U know???

Alli
09-09-2008, 05:12 PM
but the sport and the adult-industry aren't synonymous are they?

Man the madness continues. Ain't nothing like beating a dead horse....

Okay... this point draw me back to something I said earlier which is that we all draw the line somewhere. Keeping that in mind.... here I go on the following:

1) Some women will draw their comfort line at the stage. Being stageside in a bikini is about as comfortable with themselves as they get.

2) Some women will take that line a bit further to include comfort with photo shoots- sexy posing, lingerie,swimwear etc

3) And some will push the limits to include nude photography....maybe some nude posing. Nude video

4) which pushes me into those who will continue to stretch their boundaries into adult oriented activities.

I'm not even speaking relevant to myself- but in general when I say WE ALL DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE. ALL OF US. I know PLENTYof women who consider figure in itself to be scandalous and would never consider setting foot on stage in their skivvies to be judged.

Are the adult industry and the fitness industr synonomous- I'd say no, but is there that grey area where the two overlap- I'd say YES. The fitness industry is an industry that is solely aesthetic and rewards those based on their appearances, mainly their physique. No one wants to see a bodybuilder pose down in sweatpants and a tshirt, and similarly no one wants to see a fitness model, a female BB or a figure girl strutting around in a size 4XXL shirt... you want to see the physique, and the hard work put into the bodies. The adult industry is also a solely aesthetic industry, rewarding the attractive again. So it stands to reason that there aretimes when the lines blur and the two overlap....resulting in session work, girl girl activities, nude photographer, nude posing etc etc.

That overlap results from women drawing the lines at different comfort zones....

musclefox
09-09-2008, 05:21 PM
Thank You for sharing alli. It's something to think about. I hope you don't feel "judged" or anything. I don't like to "beat dead horses", so I am satisfied with the 'thread' and where it's gone. God Bless :waving:

Femphysiquefan
09-09-2008, 05:40 PM
So maybe the answer (or the attempt to find the answer) lies in 'separating the person from the industry'. So whether the occupation is moral or immoral, doesn't have any reflection on alli's self-worth. So if we "judge the job"...that's o.k. because it's an in-animate object. But no one can "judge the person". After all, that's alot of pressure on anyone to have to judge someone else (as a person). U know???

That's probably the best way that I've heard it put, MF, and probably the best solution when it comes to this issue. There's a similar concept in Christianity. Jesus said to "judge not lest ye be judged", but He also set up procedures by which a person could be excommunicated from the church (which is impossible to do without making judgments about that person). That seems like a contradiction until you look at the original language. The verb "to judge" in Koine (NT) Greek is krinow, and it can be used in a couple of ways. One is in terms of judging a person's heart (which only God knows, hence Jesus' restriction on judgment); the other is to judge a person's activity (whether or not what that person is doing is sinful, hence Jesus' procedures). The ancient Greeks realized that a person's behavior in and of itself is not necessarily indicative of what that person really believes in their heart. For instance, he or she may be engaging in such behavior involuntarily, as in the case of addiction. So, they made a dichotomy between a person's mind and heart, and their behavior. Perhaps the same principle can be applied in the case of ladies engaged in the adult side of the industry. Just because someone is engaged in adult-oriented activities doesn't mean that person is on par with, say, the Nazis in terms of morality. A good example would be Melissa Detwiller, who is VERY much involved in the adult side of the sport AND is one of the kindest, nicest people you're likely to meet in your whole life. So, one can disagree with someone like Melissa's involvement in the adult industry which would involve judgment, but that's where the judgment would have to end, because who truly knows the heart of another person other than that person and God??

musclefox
09-09-2008, 05:50 PM
That's probably the best way that I've heard it put, MF, and probably the best solution when it comes to this issue. There's a similar concept in Christianity. Jesus said to "judge not lest ye be judged", but He also set up procedures by which a person could be excommunicated from the church (which is impossible to do without making judgments about that person). That seems like a contradiction until you look at the original language. The verb "to judge" in Koine (NT) Greek is krinow, and it can be used in a couple of ways. One is in terms of judging a person's heart (which only God knows, hence Jesus' restriction on judgment); the other is to judge a person's activity (whether or not what that person is doing is sinful, hence Jesus' procedures). The ancient Greeks realized that a person's behavior in and of itself is not necessarily indicative of what that person really believes in their heart. For instance, he or she may be engaging in such behavior involuntarily, as in the case of addiction. So, they made a dichotomy between a person's mind and heart, and their behavior. Perhaps the same principle can be applied in the case of ladies engaged in the adult side of the industry. Just because someone is engaged in adult-oriented activities doesn't mean that person is on par with, say, the Nazis in terms of morality. A good example would be Melissa Detwiller, who is VERY much involved in the adult side of the sport AND is one of the kindest, nicest people you're likely to meet in your whole life. So, one can disagree with someone like Melissa's involvement in the adult industry which would involve judgment, but that's where the judgment would end, because who truly knows the heart of another person other than that person and God??



I 100% completely agree....I think we are saying the same thing! Another historical figure to examine in relation to this is Mary Magdalene. People thought she was evil. But guess who didn't judge her? The one who said: "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone" (since adultery by a woman in those days was solved by 'stoning').

dvsness
09-09-2008, 08:05 PM
I'm here for the nudes.

HDPhysiques-Joe
09-09-2008, 08:27 PM
If you'll look back on the thread some of Alli's posts are twice the length of mine, and you've apparently had no problem reading those or made any such expression towards her to shorten her posts. Why do I have to be the one to shorten mine?? :confused:

Jeremy,

The difference is not because Alli is hot (although as Tre' correctly points out - she is! lol), but the difference is that Alli says a lot, but each thing she says is usually a POINT and has meaning. You go thru about 10 minutes of fluff before you get to your points.

As someone who is busier than all hell, but is interested and needs to be informed about what goes on in this community and the opinions of fans such as yourself and competitors, I appreciate the posters who get to their damn points a helluva lot faster than you do. You know that I value your input as a contributer to this board and to the female muscle community in general, but I simply don't have time to listen to someone babble for long before they get to their points. Don't worry, you're not the only one. MPJ is on "skim" too. The reason I don't call him out on his long winded posts is because I already know that what he says 1) has already been proven that it's going to be ass backwards and therefore not worth my time to bother to ask him for a cliff notes version, 2) intended to bash girls whose actions he doesn't approve or bash website operators whose business model he doesn't approve of. I'm actually INTERESTED in what YOU have to say, Jeremy, I just wish you'd find a way to state it in a more efficient manner.

Thanks

FemFlex
09-09-2008, 08:36 PM
Jeremy,

The difference is not because Alli is hot (although as Tre' correctly points out - she is! lol), but the difference is that Alli says a lot, but each thing she says is usually a POINT and has meaning. You go thru about 10 minutes of fluff before you get to your points.

As someone who is busier than all hell, but is interested and needs to be informed about what goes on in this community and the opinions of fans such as yourself and competitors, I appreciate the posters who get to their damn points a helluva lot faster than you do. You know that I value your input as a contributer to this board and to the female muscle community in general, but I simply don't have time to listen to someone babble for long before they get to their points. Don't worry, you're not the only one. MPJ is on "skim" too. The reason I don't call him out on his long winded posts is because I already know that what he says 1) has already been proven that it's going to be ass backwards and therefore not worth my time to bother to ask him for a cliff notes version, 2) intended to bash girls whose actions he doesn't approve or bash website operators whose business model he doesn't approve of. I'm actually INTERESTED in what YOU have to say, Jeremy, I just wish you'd find a way to state it in a more efficient manner.

Thanks

From 'pwnt by Jesus' to 'pwnt by Joe'!

Jeremy, you do take a long time to get to the point, bro.

Musclepapa John
09-09-2008, 11:05 PM
See, Joe?? Guys CAN read long paragraphs after all, even without pictures. If Tre' can do it I KNOW you can. You just gotta TRY, big guy!! :p

Absolutely right about people taking issue with just about anything, Tre'. People would have an issue with these sports even if ALL the ladies WEREN'T involved in the adult stuff as well. However, my point was that those of the "it's OK," "There's nothing immoral about it" or "I have self-respect, kiss off!!" rhetoric are forcing their beliefs on other people just as much as the 'You shouldn't do that', 'It's wrong', 'Don't you have any self-respect?' crowd. It may not be as obvious at first, but when you think about it you realize that BOTH sides are guilty of the same thing, and this issue of muscleladies being involved in the adult industry is no exception. So, why accuse someone of doing something when I'm guilty of doing the exact same thing?? There's no point.

Hey Jeremy,
There obviously is a point as if we MUST claim that there are two opposing sides as one side has a vested interest in promoting their business. It really is no matter to me personally if they sit about and make youporn clips all day, which while on the subject of free pornography has always made me wonder how there could be much money in the specialty porn of a few niche bodybuilding sites. Then some of my friends in the adult industry tell me it really is NOT there anyhow. Thus, while my opinions may be "wrong" and "I'm sorry" and do "apologize" there are still all these questions that spring up in my mind. Questions and more questions, always more questions than answers,...but when someone claims to have the answers I unfortunately find myself eventually having to apologize and say I'm sorry all over again :p
Know what I mean:confused:

Alli
09-09-2008, 11:09 PM
1) Alli is hot, because she's well-spoken and has a college degree.

2) Alli is hot, because she's got a mind of her own and makes her own decisions for HER life.

3) Alli is hot, because she has the discipline to bust her butt week in, week out in the gym and in the kitchen.

4) Alli is hot, because she has no problem telling the prudes out there to kiss her luscious ass. :p

Any other questions?

LMAO LMAOLMAO:p:p:p:p

Alli
09-09-2008, 11:10 PM
I'm here for the nudes.

God I love this girl. She's blunt. To the point.

and she's a hottie.

Alli
09-09-2008, 11:13 PM
And as a side note Jeremy, the looks statements aside- you have very valid points and I always look forward to reading your posts... they DO tend to be a smidge long winded and I think that Joe meant no harm in saying that he's simply busy and can't afford to sit and weed through the fluff digging for the meat of your arguement.

That's all:)

Musclepapa John
09-09-2008, 11:26 PM
I 100% completely agree....I think we are saying the same thing! Another historical figure to examine in relation to this is Mary Magdalene. People thought she was evil. But guess who didn't judge her? The one who said: "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone" (since adultery by a woman in those days was solved by 'stoning').

Magdalene the patron saint of fallen women? Don't some feminist tenants profess her denigration by the church was the manifestation of a patriarchal view? And of course various religions skirt around the consideration that Jesus and Magdalene had a sexual relationship.

Musclepapa John
09-09-2008, 11:35 PM
Man the madness continues. Ain't nothing like beating a dead horse....

Okay... this point draw me back to something I said earlier which is that we all draw the line somewhere. Keeping that in mind.... here I go on the following:

1) Some women will draw their comfort line at the stage. Being stageside in a bikini is about as comfortable with themselves as they get.

2) Some women will take that line a bit further to include comfort with photo shoots- sexy posing, lingerie,swimwear etc

3) And some will push the limits to include nude photography....maybe some nude posing. Nude video

4) which pushes me into those who will continue to stretch their boundaries into adult oriented activities.

I'm not even speaking relevant to myself- but in general when I say WE ALL DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE. ALL OF US. I know PLENTYof women who consider figure in itself to be scandalous and would never consider setting foot on stage in their skivvies to be judged.

Are the adult industry and the fitness industr synonomous- I'd say no, but is there that grey area where the two overlap- I'd say YES. The fitness industry is an industry that is solely aesthetic and rewards those based on their appearances, mainly their physique. No one wants to see a bodybuilder pose down in sweatpants and a tshirt, and similarly no one wants to see a fitness model, a female BB or a figure girl strutting around in a size 4XXL shirt... you want to see the physique, and the hard work put into the bodies. The adult industry is also a solely aesthetic industry, rewarding the attractive again. So it stands to reason that there aretimes when the lines blur and the two overlap....resulting in session work, girl girl activities, nude photographer, nude posing etc etc.

That overlap results from women drawing the lines at different comfort zones....



Long post, but I like it like Jeremy's, lol. By the way,...I'm sorry, I apologize, I'm wrong, and love you...paypal payment not included, lol. This discussion of bodybuilding, fitness, and figure sport in relation to the adult industry could as easily be taken to the male side of the aisle where many do work producing material for gay sites that pay quite well. I agree with much of what you say, but as you have noted numerous times would reiterate the "dead horse" that everyone's comfort level is different.

musclefox
09-09-2008, 11:56 PM
Magdalene the patron saint of fallen women? Don't some feminist tenants profess her denigration by the church was the manifestation of a patriarchal view? And of course various religions skirt around the consideration that Jesus and Magdalene had a sexual relationship.





I mean, I don't know (or really even care) what images, and agendas "feminists", "other religions" and so on and so forth conceive about that Mary. The fact is, she was lost (not unlike the one's that form cults as you suggest). And the only person who was able to judge her, Did not.

The book of proverbs says: "an open rebuke is better than hidden love". Meaning it is better to go 100 mph with the ATTEMPT to do good, than have love for another person, but never even say it, U know?

When it was all said and done, (that) Mary was the first to see "the resurrection". Not Peter, or any of the other disciples. There is a message in that somewhere (not sure at the moment).

And as far as them "hooking up".........uh-uh, didn't happen. That is yet another attempt to destroy the validity of the gospels. :bowdown:

ambydawn
09-10-2008, 12:20 AM
Ah, so now the thread turns to religion. Yet another attempt to force views of Christianity upon us, and an attempt by me to force upon everyone my view that views of Christianity are being forced upon us. :nuts:
Do I have it about right Jeremy? ;)

FemFlex
09-10-2008, 12:56 AM
Hold on, is MF claiming that Jesus was a virgin??

musclefox
09-10-2008, 01:08 AM
Hold on, is MF claiming that Jesus was a virgin??

LOL...I'll let you call me "MF", since it's the abbreviation of my screen name (though I've been called "MF" before I joined this website, and the initials weren't for MuscleFox.....).

Anyway, I'm just stating what the gospels say. I don't claim anything that isn't in the gospels. It's not a matter of my opinion, my opinions are irrelevent on this subject. I'm not sure there is even another way to look at it. He never sinned. He never married.....add those two and Yes, he was a 'virgin' (but no 'purity ring' I don't think :LOLOL:).

Femphysiquefan
09-10-2008, 02:40 AM
Ah, so now the thread turns to religion. Yet another attempt to force views of Christianity upon us, and an attempt by me to force upon everyone my view that views of Christianity are being forced upon us. :nuts:
Do I have it about right Jeremy? ;)

Yep. :angel:

Alli
09-10-2008, 11:33 AM
I really think religion needs to be kept out of it... again goes back to what I said before... different strokes for different folks... if you're a Chrisitian that's wonderful, bear in mind not everyone on here is therefore they may not want to get on this site and have to deal with any Bible thumping.

musclefox
09-10-2008, 03:32 PM
I really think religion needs to be kept out of it... again goes back to what I said before... different strokes for different folks... if you're a Chrisitian that's wonderful, bear in mind not everyone on here is therefore they may not want to get on this site and have to deal with any Bible thumping.



.......Then again, those that want to learn more may have an opportunity to do just that, in an environment that they can relate to (not sure who is attempting to do the "thumping" here, hmmm).

FemFlex
09-10-2008, 03:42 PM
.......Then again, those that want to learn more may have an opportunity to do just that, in an environment that they can relate to (not sure who is attempting to do the "thumping" here, hmmm).
Although we have seen more than a sprinkling of religious chatter with the advancement of a Christian agenda by certain posters, I don't feel it's been too over-the-top (except in a couple of cases).

That said, my impression is that most posters are fully able to articulate their views without saying, "And by the way, God's on my side, so I am right and you are wrong."

Of course, I'm speaking only about those who actually make a point, so at least one guy is excluded. haha

anglicanbeachparty
09-10-2008, 03:50 PM
That said, my impression is that most posters are fully able to articulate their views without saying, "And by the way, God's on my side, so I am right and you are wrong."

I cannot imagine anyone at SC.com making a statement like that.

Oh, wait, there was one guy who did ... :LOLOL:

Very interesting perspective, gentlemen.

A mandate from Jesus is a pretty compelling argument.

FemFlex
09-10-2008, 04:05 PM
I cannot imagine anyone at SC.com making a statement like that.

Oh, wait, there was one guy who did ... :LOLOL:
Didn't you say that Jesus was wrong in that instance?

anglicanbeachparty
09-10-2008, 04:05 PM
Didn't you say that Jesus was wrong in that instance?

No, merely that the verse was misapplied to the situation being discussed.

musclefox
09-10-2008, 05:03 PM
Although we have seen more than a sprinkling of religious chatter with the advancement of a Christian agenda by certain posters, I don't feel it's been too over-the-top (except in a couple of cases).

That said, my impression is that most posters are fully able to articulate their views without saying, "And by the way, God's on my side, so I am right and you are wrong."

Of course, I'm speaking only about those who actually make a point, so at least one guy is excluded. haha


Comedian George Wallace (http://www.georgewallace.net/main.html) says it best: "God loves you and there is ABSOLUTELY nothing you can do about it!" :frog:

dvsness
09-10-2008, 05:56 PM
What is up with all the God shit in here now? I was all about the porn. You're ruining it.

Shelly
09-10-2008, 05:57 PM
What is up with all the God shit in here now? I was all about the porn. You're ruining it.

LOL

Siouxcountry
09-10-2008, 06:17 PM
What is up with all the God shit in here now? I was all about the porn. You're ruining it.

Does this help? :sex:

FemFlex
09-10-2008, 07:02 PM
What is up with all the God shit in here now? I was all about the porn. You're ruining it.
I LOVE this woman!

You rock, Dvsness.

musclefox
09-10-2008, 10:32 PM
What is up with all the God shit in here now? I was all about the porn. You're ruining it.



How dare he create us..............and then have the "nerve" to Love us on top of that!!!

dvsness
09-10-2008, 10:39 PM
How dare he create us..............and then have the "nerve" to Love us on top of that!!!

Oh, FFS, give it a rest.

Musclepapa John
09-10-2008, 10:42 PM
Maybe since religion is being questioned as an appropriate topic as compared to porn there should be a thread asking the question "Is the body a temple or a vessel?" Do you respect your body and seek to develop it to its greatest potential or use your body to achieve your banal needs? Okay loaded question in follow up, but fun all the same, lol. Certainly you can respect your body and use it at the same time right? lol.

musclefox
09-10-2008, 10:48 PM
Oh, FFS, give it a rest.



Vanessa...you are Loved and there is absolutely NOTHING you can do about it!

dvsness
09-10-2008, 10:53 PM
Certainly you can respect your body and use it at the same time right? lol.

Certainly. It would be disrespectful to deny pleasure.

Vanessa...you are Loved and there is absolutely NOTHING you can do about it!

I am. I am loved by my friends and family. It is a mutual love and respect where we don't try to force our agendas and beliefs on one another. You should give it a whirl.

Musclepapa John
09-10-2008, 10:55 PM
I don't know how many folks here have had the opportunity to watch a routine by Russ Testo, but at the IFBB Jacksonville Pro and Dexter Jackson Classic Testo performed a routine of I'd guess nearly 10 minutes that was the enactment of Bible verses. Quite a routine that he received a standing ovation for. He is of course considered one of the best posers and his style is appreciated by large numbers of people. It certainly does reflect well on a sport that many in the press want to portray as closely related to vanity, drug abuse, rage, and perversion. Maybe I can dig it out of the 18 hrs of tape I've got here, lol. Dex & Gale are gonna kick my pat toot if I don't get it to them anyhow :o)

dvsness
09-10-2008, 11:04 PM
I don't know how many folks here have had the opportunity to watch a routine by Russ Testo, but at the IFBB Jacksonville Pro and Dexter Jackson Classic Testo performed a routine of I'd guess nearly 10 minutes that was the enactment of Bible versus. Quite a routine that he received a standing ovation for. He is of course considered one of the best posers and his style is appreciated by large numbers of people. It certainly does reflect well on a sport that many in the press want to portray as closely related to vanity, drug abuse, rage, and perversion. Maybe I can dig it out of the 18 hrs of tape I've got here, lol. Dex & Gale are gonna kick my pat toot if I don't get it to them anyhow :o)

I'm lost, are you trying to say that 'vanity, drug abuse, rage, and perversion' are not found in the bible?

Musclepapa John
09-10-2008, 11:04 PM
Certainly. It would be disrespectful to deny pleasure.
I am. I am loved by my friends and family. It is a mutual love and respect where we don't try to force our agendas and beliefs on one another. You should give it a whirl.

Love the back pose and Helvetii like moxy.:boxer:

Musclepapa John
09-10-2008, 11:08 PM
I'm lost, are you trying to say that 'vanity, drug abuse, rage, and perversion' are not found in the bible?

Oh heck no, hot & sweet stuff (front pose is smoking also). I'm saying that those matters are about all the mainstream press cares to print about you girls/guys in the sport. It is better that we not bruise each other too badly as the outside world of non-sports enthusiast society and its institutions already exert plenty of time and energy doing it to us/you. :respect:

Alli
09-11-2008, 12:18 AM
I'm lost, are you trying to say that 'vanity, drug abuse, rage, and perversion' are not found in the bible?

of course you're lost babe- it's one thing to speak intelligently, it's quite another to fluff up lack of point with colorful words and assume people want to wade through your rambling muck to try to get to the actual MEAT of your statement (if there is some).

Speaking intelligently means speaking in a way others can understand and respond intelligently to you- not posting statements that need a dictionary that need a dictionary that need ANOTHER dictionary and perhaps a thesaurus just to understand that the hell is going on.

Musclepapa John
09-11-2008, 12:21 AM
of course you're lost babe- it's one thing to speak intelligently, it's quite another to fluff up lack of point with colorful words and assume people want to wade through your rambling muck to try to get to the actual MEAT of your statement (if there is some).

Speaking intelligently means speaking in a way others can understand and respond intelligently to you- not posting statements that need a dictionary that need a dictionary that need ANOTHER dictionary and perhaps a thesaurus just to understand that the hell is going on.

Geez Alli, don't waste time with dictionaries. Some nice guy is waiting for ya on the webcam. Is that the form of talking down to your audience you prefer?

Alli
09-11-2008, 12:25 AM
Geez Alli, don't waste time with dictionaries. Some nice guy is waiting for ya on the webcam. Is that the form of talking down to your audience you prefer?

No need for hostility.

FemFlex
09-11-2008, 12:27 AM
Geez Alli, don't waste time with dictionaries. Some nice guy is waiting for ya on the webcam. Is that the form of talking down to your audience you prefer?

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Dexter Jackson-ville Florida
MySpace ID: johnhawley
Posts: 359

359 posts and still has yet to make a point. :blah:

Alli
09-11-2008, 12:29 AM
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Dexter Jackson-ville Florida
MySpace ID: johnhawley
Posts: 359

359 posts and still has yet to make a point. :blah:

:lol5:

Musclepapa John
09-11-2008, 01:47 AM
:lol5:

:lol5:

Musclepapa John
09-11-2008, 01:49 AM
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Dexter Jackson-ville Florida
MySpace ID: johnhawley
Posts: 359

359 posts and still has yet to make a point. :blah:

Aren't there some girls you need to pitch the virtues of web cam work to? Maybe some college grads with English minors whose dictionaries you can get them to give up?:LOLOL:

musclefox
09-11-2008, 02:27 AM
Geez Alli, don't waste time with dictionaries. Some nice guy is waiting for ya on the webcam. Is that the form of talking down to your audience you prefer?



"MP J"....out of curiosity, why do you all of a sudden care what Alli thinks? I mean, first she could make more money if she used her degree (according to you), then you say you are "less profit driven" than most in the fitness industry. Are you seeking to win an argument, or tell us all something that only you know and we don't???

Femphysiquefan
09-11-2008, 02:42 AM
Sorry to be blunt, but I for one have had enough of the personal and rather immature sniping that's been going on here. Can we all please cut that out so we can all get back to trying to discuss this legitimate subject Tre' has brought up in an grown-up, intelligent fashion?? I really don't think that's too much to ask. A healthy debate is a good thing, but only when it's a REAL debate in which both sides bring well-thought out, INTELLIGENT arguments to the table; not when it degenerates into some shouting match in which each person tries their best to prove that they're the biggest ass in the room.

Bernie
09-11-2008, 02:53 AM
I may get shot for responding to this thread, but I cannot help it. ( :hiding:from:SBT: )

Ok. Well, to get to the point, I am both a Christian and a frequenter of webcams.

When I found the webcams, I was going through a very dark time in my life. Very quickly I developed some very good friendships. Those friends helped me drag my ass out of that pit of dispair I was wallowing in. Yes, I paid for some of my "counseling sessions." I can tell you right now, some of the webcam performers are also some of the greatest people I have ever had the privledge of communicating with. Competitor, non-competitor, church member, co-worker, whatever. I have also had the oppertunity to get to know some CHIRSTIANS that perform on webcam as well. And have had some very good, and very deep conversations with them.

I will also add, just becuase a woman does webcam, it does not mean she does nude work, or even pornography. Shoot, you can do nude, with out it being pornography. But that debate is for a later time.

I know many good, nay, great women who make a supplementary, and/or primary income through webcam. It allows them to do the things they want to do, and it allows many to do what is necessary to compete. Not everyone has a high paying job, not everyone has an education, not everyone has sponserships. This is in fact a service that has been afforded to competitors so that they can make ends meet. True, some may not agree with it, it may not be for some people, but it by no means makes it wrong.

anyway....thats it for now...im tired and i need to get to bed.

and Tre, my standpoint on whether or not Jesus was a virgin. The Bible never claims he was. And the Bible never claims he wasn't. But I do believe he was crucified a virigin. One would think that if Jesus was married, it would be in the Bible. Sounds kind of like a major thing. Jesus died perfect and sinless. Sex outside of marriage is a sin, if He was perfect, there was no mention of a marriage in the Bible, so I believe he was crucified a virgin.

Musclepapa John
09-11-2008, 02:59 AM
I may get shot for responding to this thread, but I cannot help it. ( :hiding:from:SBT: )
Ok. Well, to get to the point, I am both a Christian and a frequenter of webcams.
When I found the webcams, I was going through a very dark time in my life. Very quickly I developed some very good friendships. Those friends helped me drag my ass out of that pit of dispair I was wallowing in. Yes, I paid for some of my "counseling sessions." I can tell you right now, some of the webcam performers are also some of the greatest people I have ever had the privledge of communicating with. Competitor, non-competitor, church member, co-worker, whatever. I have also had the oppertunity to get to know some CHIRSTIANS that perform on webcam as well. And have had some very good, and very deep conversations with them.
I will also add, just becuase a woman does webcam, it does not mean she does nude work, or even pornography. Shoot, you can do nude, with out it being pornography. But that debate is for a later time.
I know many good, nay, great women who make a supplementary, and/or primary income through webcam. It allows them to do the things they want to do, and it allows many to do what is necessary to compete. Not everyone has a high paying job, not everyone has an education, not everyone has sponserships. This is in fact a service that has been afforded to competitors so that they can make ends meet. True, some may not agree with it, it may not be for some people, but it by no means makes it wrong.
anyway....thats it for now...im tired and i need to get to bed.
and Tre, my standpoint on whether or not Jesus was a virgin. The Bible never claims he was. And the Bible never claims he wasn't. But I do believe he was crucified a virigin. One would think that if Jesus was married, it would be in the Bible. Sounds kind of like a major thing. Jesus died perfect and sinless. Sex outside of marriage is a sin, if He was perfect, there was no mention of a marriage in the Bible, so I believe he was crucified a virgin.

Powerful testimony brotha. I respect you for making it and sharing your experience and views. Mine has been as someone who only has preconceived notions and no personal experience with cams. I've experienced porn mind you. My detractors can blame my ill nature on my exposure to porn if they like, lol. As a result I'm a bit ignorant on the subject of caming, but mind you that never stopped me from having an opinion on anything and wrong I can surely be maybe more often than not. One of my next questions was actually to be to Alli as to the content of the sort of typical exchange she might have with a web caming client, but I "got off" on the tit for tat.
thanks again,
John:respect:

musclefox
09-11-2008, 03:04 AM
Sorry to be blunt, but I for one have had enough of the personal and rather immature sniping that's been going on here. Can we all please cut that out so we can all get back to trying to discuss this legitimate subject Tre' has brought up in an grown-up, intelligent fashion?? I really don't think that's too much to ask. A healthy debate is a good thing, but only when it's a REAL debate in which both sides bring well-thought out, INTELLIGENT arguments to the table; not when it degenerates into some shouting match in which each person tries their best to prove that they're the biggest ass in the room.



O.K., my bad FemphysiqueFan.....

Siouxcountry
09-11-2008, 03:58 AM
I really think religion needs to be kept out of it... again goes back to what I said before... different strokes for different folks... if you're a Chrisitian that's wonderful, bear in mind not everyone on here is therefore they may not want to get on this site and have to deal with any Bible thumping.

I agree.

Bernie
09-11-2008, 04:23 AM
I really think religion needs to be kept out of it... again goes back to what I said before... different strokes for different folks... if you're a Chrisitian that's wonderful, bear in mind not everyone on here is therefore they may not want to get on this site and have to deal with any Bible thumping.
I agree.




ok, im going to play Devils Advocate here.

the same could easily be said, bear in mind not everyone on here likes to see modeling picutres of skantily clad women, therefore they may not want to get on this site and have to deal with any of those pictures.

modeling pictures in bikini's, skimpy outfits, dresses, or less are not directly a part of the industry. they are a byproduct. something that helps competitors pay the bills. just like there are Christians who are competitors as well.

is it not unfair to restrict one persons thoughts and/or words because their belief system differs from yours, then allow pictures of women wearing next to nothing when they may offend another person?

just a thought.

Musclepapa John
09-11-2008, 11:53 AM
I agree.

You might be surprised how many more athletes in the sport of bodybuilding, fitness, and figure would be offended by the prohibition of religious oriented discussion versus prohibition of porn and foul-mouthed talk. I agree that we need not quote scriptures from the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita. Yet, it would be telling if one were to bolster adult oriented discussion in the sport over religion. I've friends that compete and are trainers that likewise teach yoga and meditation. Nurturing the mind, body, and spirit connection are recognized by many as crucial to a healthy, happy, and successful life regardless of how one believes they need to nurture the spirit.

It's Not Roid Rage !
09-11-2008, 12:07 PM
Certainly. It would be disrespectful to deny pleasure.



I am. I am loved by my friends and family. It is a mutual love and respect where we don't try to force our agendas and beliefs on one another. You should give it a whirl.

LMAO, This Young Laides the BOMB . I love it. lolololol...........:bowdown:

It's Not Roid Rage !
09-11-2008, 12:10 PM
of course you're lost babe- it's one thing to speak intelligently, it's quite another to fluff up lack of point with colorful words and assume people want to wade through your rambling muck to try to get to the actual MEAT of your statement (if there is some).

Speaking intelligently means speaking in a way others can understand and respond intelligently to you- not posting statements that need a dictionary that need a dictionary that need ANOTHER dictionary and perhaps a thesaurus just to understand that the hell is going on.

Thank You, someone needed to say that, Cause I'm Just a Ordinary Bro... and I would love to partake in the Convo if I new what the hell It was about?:confused:

musclefox
09-11-2008, 03:55 PM
Thank You, someone needed to say that, Cause I'm Just a Ordinary Bro... and I would love to partake in the Convo if I new what the hell It was about?:confused:



Be careful what you ask for I.N.R.R., you might just get it! Since your cool....i recommend you don't get involved (just sayin')

FemFlex
09-11-2008, 04:14 PM
Geez Alli, don't waste time with dictionaries. Some nice guy is waiting for ya on the webcam. Is that the form of talking down to your audience you prefer?
I'm disappointed that there hasn't been more outcry about this guy's negativity from the self-avowed positive people.

I'm not saying that I'm surprised...just disappointed.

There are things that are appropriate for adults, things that are appropriate for kids, and things that are appropriate for all ages.

Almost all of the people who compete or who work in or around the competitive physique industry are adults. That's reality.

As Alli has stated, we're all different with respect to our levels of comfort with different things.

But the fact that one person decides to pose for a sensual video in no way infringes on the right of anyone else to choose NOT to.

How often does a sensual poser (used generically) tell the non-sensual poser that he/she should engage in sensual posing activities?

It's Not Roid Rage !
09-11-2008, 05:01 PM
Be careful what you ask for I.N.R.R., you might just get it! Since your cool....i recommend you don't get involved (just sayin')

Good Idea ;) LOL.............

Alli
09-11-2008, 06:01 PM
I can tell you right now, some of the webcam performers are also some of the greatest people I have ever had the privledge of communicating with.

I will also add, just becuase a woman does webcam, it does not mean she does nude work, or even pornography. Shoot, you can do nude, with out it being pornography. But that debate is for a later time. True, some may not agree with it, it may not be for some people, but it by no means makes it wrong.


Bernie these are EXCELLENT points. REALLY good post!

Alli
09-11-2008, 06:01 PM
I'm disappointed that there hasn't been more outcry about this guy's negativity from the self-avowed positive people.

I'm not saying that I'm surprised...just disappointed.

There are things that are appropriate for adults, things that are appropriate for kids, and things that are appropriate for all ages.

Almost all of the people who compete or who work in or around the competitive physique industry are adults. That's reality.

As Alli has stated, we're all different with respect to our levels of comfort with different things.

But the fact that one person decides to pose for a sensual video in no way infringes on the right of anyone else to choose NOT to.

How often does a sensual poser (used generically) tell the non-sensual poser that he/she should engage in sensual posing activities?


Props Tre. Good stuff.

Alli
09-11-2008, 06:04 PM
Aren't there some girls you need to pitch the virtues of web cam work to? Maybe some college grads with English minors whose dictionaries you can get them to give up?:LOLOL:

I'm unsure as to why stooping to a low level of insult is giving you the jollies right now. I simply said that your posts are rambling and you take forever to get a point... I certainly didn't attack your character, your livelihood or your personality... and yet you have attacked both Tre's and mine....

I certainly don't see how stating that your posts are too long winded should warrant some sort of character assassination.

Siouxcountry
09-11-2008, 06:46 PM
My opinion is one should state their opinion without bringing up religion (that includes atheism), as more people will likely read it and comprehend it.

I know for a fact many don't read posts or understand them when religion is entered into a topic.

anglicanbeachparty
09-11-2008, 07:12 PM
My opinion is one should state their opinion without bringing up religion (that includes atheism), as more people will likely read it and comprehend it.

I know for a fact many don't read posts or understand them when religion is entered into a topic.

As a possible solution to the issue of folks who wish to touch on religious topics, I offer the use of the Anglican Beach Party Art Forum (http://www.siouxcountry.com/forumdisplay.php?f=33) for that purpose. The sub-title for my forum is Fine Art, Faith, & the Female Physique, so I would welcome anyone who is so motivated to feel free to discuss faith issues over there.

:angel:

In case it isn't clear, any SC.com member may begin a new thread there.

Bernie
09-11-2008, 07:36 PM
My opinion is one should state their opinion without bringing up religion (that includes atheism), as more people will likely read it and comprehend it.

I know for a fact many don't read posts or understand them when religion is entered into a topic.

many times it is our religious beliefs that shape our view points on topics. there are only so many times someone can ask why you see something a certain way before you have to say, I'm a Christian, and this is what the Bible says.....or whatever religion you believe. its just the way it is.

Bernie
09-11-2008, 07:39 PM
Bernie these are EXCELLENT points. REALLY good post!

:D

musclefox
09-11-2008, 09:08 PM
many times it is our religious beliefs that shape our view points on topics. there are only so many times someone can ask why you see something a certain way before you have to say, I'm a Christian, and this is what the Bible says.....or whatever religion you believe. its just the way it is.



EXCELLENT point "B-Dawg"

musclefox
09-11-2008, 10:31 PM
Good Idea ;) LOL.............



You can respond if you want. But to answer your original post....I don't know what he#* this thread is about anymore. It's kinda' like 'surfing'. You just kinda' ride the wave to the end...wherever it's going, I don't think anyone really knows for sure.

HDPhysiques-Joe
09-11-2008, 10:57 PM
I'm disappointed that there hasn't been more outcry about this guy's (MusclePapaJohn) negativity from the self-avowed positive people.

I'm not saying that I'm surprised...just disappointed.

Well said, T. I agree 100%. Frankly, I'm somewhat surprised that Sioux hasn't issued a stern warning towards the guy yet, as it's pretty clear to me that all he's interested in is bashing the girls whose actions he doesn't agree with, or paysite owners with alternative business models than what he participates in.

I personally don't mind it, as I'm easily able to expose his true intent and the negative nature of his posts, but I agree with you that I'm disappointed that his negativity has not been called out here (besides us) simply because he disguises it in craftily penned indirect attacks, which avoids the obvious negativity that direct attacks and name calling bring to light. Time to call in Picsman? LOL

Musclepapa John
09-11-2008, 11:33 PM
In response to a discussion about webcam work, Danielle posted the following:

Male or female, virtually every choice you make empowers you.
At their respective cores, what is the difference between posing for free and posing for money?

I disagree. Every choice you make does not empower you. Some choices clearly close doors of opportunity. That is simply the way it is no ifs ands or buts.

Siouxcountry
09-11-2008, 11:36 PM
Well said, T. I agree 100%. Frankly, I'm somewhat surprised that Sioux hasn't issued a stern warning towards the guy yet, as it's pretty clear to me that all he's interested in is bashing the girls whose actions he doesn't agree with, or paysite owners with alternative business models than what he participates in.

I personally don't mind it, as I'm easily able to expose his true intent and the negative nature of his posts, but I agree with you that I'm disappointed that his negativity has not been called out here (besides us) simply because he disguises it in craftily penned indirect attacks, which avoids the obvious negativity that direct attacks and name calling bring to light. Time to call in Picsman? LOL

I see Alli handling herself very well in this thread. I have had no PMs from anyone asking me to intervene.

I have no problem with women or men doing webcam.

You may read all of John's posts, I don't. I have a lot on my plate and a huge show that takes place tomorrow, that I will be spending all my free time posting, searching for info about.

Alli
09-11-2008, 11:38 PM
I see Alli handling herself very well in this thread. I have had no PMs from anyone asking me to intervene.

I have no problem with women or men doing webcam.

You may read all of John's posts, I don't. I have a lot on my plate and a huge show that takes place tomorrow, that I will be spending all my free time posting, searching for info about.

Thanks Sioux!

Musclepapa John
09-11-2008, 11:45 PM
I see Alli handling herself very well in this thread. I have had no PMs from anyone asking me to intervene.

I have no problem with women or men doing webcam.

You may read all of John's posts, I don't. I have a lot on my plate and a huge show that takes place tomorrow, that I will be spending all my free time posting, searching for info about.

Thanks for doing what you do Sioux. I don't know how you accomplish it all, but that is part of your enigma. :awesome:

FemFlex
09-12-2008, 12:02 AM
I see Alli handling herself very well in this thread. I have had no PMs from anyone asking me to intervene.
Exactly.

Some people whine, some people don't. ;)

You may read all of John's posts, I don't.
Joe wasn't really calling you out so much as the guys who always come in playing Happy Sunshine Dudes and obsessing over the 'negativity' being spread by other posters like myself.

I may have made a point about it, but as you might expect, I'm loving this delicious irony.

Hypocrites are scrumptious!

Musclepapa John
09-12-2008, 12:13 AM
Exactly.
Hypocrites are scrumptious!
I think I've heard the "hypocrites" claim by peeps not wanting to go to church. My excuse is I just can't find a philosophy that works wholly for me. However, I know what I believe. What's your excuse?:spit:

Musclepapa John
09-12-2008, 12:21 AM
In response to a discussion about webcam work, Danielle posted the following:

Originally Posted by foxybr189
To each their own...I suppose. But I have to say, that after reading this sections and doing a quick Google search, I was appalled to see the amount of figure and bodybuilding women that are taking part in such types of...dare I say pornography. Maybe I am naive or possibly overly conservative.

I really thought that figure was meant to empower women. Though I hate to put on those clear stripper shoes for competitions, I didn't realize that they are worn by some all year round.

I am sure I will get blasted for this one. However, I don't care. This is my stance and I am sticking to it. I understand that people need money, but money is not everything. Sure it will pay your bills, but this type of "work" is really limiting to ones career.

The internet is a great thing, to a certain extent. But people do need to remember that the entire world now has access to what you do. Especially, if it is more "private" in nature.

Male or female, virtually every choice you make empowers you.

At their respective cores, what is the difference between posing for free and posing for money?

foxybr189's statement about money not being everything really sticks out in my head. As I noted last about some choices not being empowering at all I really believe it to be true. If someone chooses to murder someone it isn't really empowering as Tre claims with, "Male or female, virtually every choice you make empowers you." Does stealing empower? Does lying empower? Does drug addiction empower? Does pedofilia empower? Does choosing not to do your homework as a child empower? Does not bathing or grooming empower? I'd say every choice follows with a "result" not empowerment, but of course Tre is in the webcam business and this is really about promoting his business model. I must say I've done a fair job of helping considering the number of posts and hit counts. Maybe I should get a check?:D

dvsness
09-12-2008, 12:38 AM
foxybr189's statement about money not being everything really sticks out in my head. As I noted last about some choices not being empowering at all I really believe it to be true. If someone chooses to murder someone it isn't really empowering as Tre claims with, "Male or female, virtually every choice you make empowers you." Does stealing empower? Does lying empower? Does drug addiction empower? Does pedofilia empower? Does choosing not to do your homework as a child empower? Does not bathing or grooming empower? I'd say every choice follows with a "result" not empowerment, but of course Tre is in the webcam business and this is really about promoting his business model. I must say I've done a fair job of helping considering the number of posts and hit counts. Maybe I should get a check?:D

So now flexing for pay is on par with stealing and pedophilia? And I'd have to argue that an addiction, by definition, is not a choice.

FemFlex
09-12-2008, 12:38 AM
I think I've heard the "hypocrites" claim by peeps not wanting to go to church. My excuse is I just can't find a philosophy that works wholly for me. However, I know what I believe. What's your excuse?:spit:
Excuses don't explain and explanations don't excuse.

You won't ever find me offering one...for anything.

musclefox
09-12-2008, 12:52 AM
Exactly.

Some people whine, some people don't. ;)


Joe wasn't really calling you out so much as the guys who always come in playing Happy Sunshine Dudes and obsessing over the 'negativity' being spread by other posters like myself.

I may have made a point about it, but as you might expect, I'm loving this delicious irony.

Hypocrites are scrumptious!



Dude...your the biggest hypocrite on this entire thread. In post #146 you claim 'no one is calling this guy ("MP J") out. But I "called him out" on post #135 and then again in the thread Ibarramedia started called "How about a political monster section". And you turn around and "stab me in the back" and say "these folks can have it out in another section (not EXACT words)". What's up with that? I guess YOU are what YOU eat...

Musclepapa John
09-12-2008, 12:56 AM
So now flexing for pay is on par with stealing and pedophilia? And I'd have to argue that an addiction, by definition, is not a choice.

Didn't say it was. The original post in the thread by Tre states, "Male or female, virtually every choice you make empowers you." There are lots of choices that don't empower, a virtual cornucopia of choices. :popcorn:

Musclepapa John
09-12-2008, 12:58 AM
Excuses don't explain and explanations don't excuse.
You won't ever find me offering one...for anything.
True that and mercenary man here waiting for my check missionary man:bowdown:

dvsness
09-12-2008, 01:03 AM
Didn't say it was. The original post in the thread by Tre states, "Male or female, virtually every choice you make empowers you." There are lots of choices that don't empower, a virtual cornucopia of choices. :popcorn:

Addiction is not a choice, it is a disease.

dvsness
09-12-2008, 01:03 AM
Tre', in post #167, you may or may not have been called a pussy. :angel:

musclefox
09-12-2008, 01:04 AM
True that and mercenary man here waiting for my check missionary man:bowdown:



LOL @ missionary man

musclefox
09-12-2008, 01:05 AM
Tre', in post #167, you may or may not have been called a pussy. :angel:


Is that a disease???

Musclepapa John
09-12-2008, 01:06 AM
Addiction is not a choice, it is a disease.

Granted. Yet, sex addiction, addiction to chocolate, so-called addictions to lots of things are overblown. I suspect some are addicted to conversations with hot ladies on web cams, but a legitimate treatment might be difficult to surmise.:)

dvsness
09-12-2008, 01:08 AM
Didn't say it was. The original post in the thread by Tre states, "Male or female, virtually every choice you make empowers you." There are lots of choices that don't empower, a virtual cornucopia of choices. :popcorn:

But seriously, back on topic here, many of those choices you listed were crimes, where people are harmed. This was a discussion about flexing for a camera. I guess what it boils down to for me is that it shouldn't matter to anyone. I don't partake, but I do think this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion.

Carry on!

dvsness
09-12-2008, 01:10 AM
Is that a disease???

Pussy? Surely you've heard of it. I suppose you will find a diseased one on occasion, but some penicillin should help.

Wait, what?

dvsness
09-12-2008, 01:12 AM
Granted. Yet, sex addiction, addiction to chocolate, so-called addictions to lots of things are overblown. I suspect some are addicted to conversations with hot ladies on web cams, but a legitimate treatment might be difficult to surmise.:)

I do believe you said drug addiction. Don't go changing lanes!

Musclepapa John
09-12-2008, 01:18 AM
But seriously, back on topic here, many of those choices you listed were crimes, where people are harmed. This was a discussion about flexing for a camera. I guess what it boils down to for me is that it shouldn't matter to anyone. I don't partake, but I do think this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion.
Carry on!

Surely you are right and I don't disagree with anything you've written in this post. Yet, I disagreed from the beginning with the claim by a web cam operator who claimed virtually every choice empowers. To me that circumstance is akin to a crack dealer telling a young lady this little hit on the pipe will empower her. Oh, I'm clear that web caming isn't the same as smoking crack. Yet, the extreme analogy makes the most vivid depiction. I gotta make my points quick ya know as me durn lingo is like to big shot wit da big words and all don'tcha know :D

FemFlex
09-12-2008, 01:19 AM
Tre', in post #167, you may or may not have been called a pussy. :angel:
Best. Post. Ever.

Vanessa is rockin' this joint!!

You gonna be in Vegas for the O? Gotta build a quality party around you and AlliMo.

Musclepapa John
09-12-2008, 01:21 AM
I do believe you said drug addiction. Don't go changing lanes!

Dang you gurl! Quote me and point it out to me so I'll admit my error and shut up my key board already!:bowdown: You are right on! Sorry about that. Indeed, drug addiction isn't a choice,......or is it?:help:

dvsness
09-12-2008, 01:22 AM
Surely you are right and I don't disagree with anything you've written in this post. Yet, I disagreed from the beginning with the claim by a web cam operator who claimed virtually every choice empowers. To me that circumstance is akin to a crack dealer telling a young lady this little hit on the pipe will empower her. Oh, I'm clear that web caming isn't the same as smoking crack. Yet, the extreme analogy makes the most vivid depiction. I gotta make my points quick ya know as me durn lingo is like to big shot wit da big words and all don'tcha know :D

I might be able to draw that conclusion if there was a Little Bo Peep-esque character that was being coerced into performing web cam. That doesn't seem to be the case though. It's simply a discussion, not a recruiting seminar.

dvsness
09-12-2008, 01:23 AM
Best. Post. Ever.

Vanessa is rockin' this joint!!

You gonna be in Vegas for the O? Gotta build a quality party around you and AlliMo.

Yup, I'll be working the expo.

FemFlex
09-12-2008, 01:27 AM
Dude...your the biggest hypocrite on this entire thread. In post #146 you claim 'no one is calling this guy ("MP J") out. But I "called him out" on post #135 and then again in the thread Ibarramedia started called "How about a political monster section". And you turn around and "stab me in the back" and say "these folks can have it out in another section (not EXACT words)". What's up with that? I guess YOU are what YOU eat...
The conversation is moving too quickly for you.

You deserve your props for putting MPJ in check - kudos there - but there's no question that the Sunshine Brigade has been noticeably silent. Methinks it's because they perceive him more as one of them than as one of us (defined as whichever individuals are included in the 'us' that also includes me).

That said, my post in the Ibarr proposal thread was nothing short of brilliant and on this one, I do not mind tooting me own horn.

Here's to hornification, baby! :awesome:

dvsness
09-12-2008, 01:27 AM
Dang you gurl! Quote me and point it out to me so I'll admit my error and shut up my key board already!:bowdown: You are right on! Sorry about that. Indeed, drug addiction isn't a choice,......or is it?:help:

Get off your knees, it's unbecoming.

And now, for tangent 789025730:

You may choose to partake in drugs, but no, I don't believe addiction is a choice. I don't think anyone does a line of coke thinking, 'I sure do hope that I become an addict so that I may have my relationships, health and employment suffer.'

musclefox
09-12-2008, 01:32 AM
The conversation is moving too quickly for you.

You deserve your props for putting MPJ in check - kudos there - but there's no question that the Sunshine Brigade has been noticeably silent. Methinks it's because they perceive him more as one of them than as one of us (defined as whichever individuals are included in the 'us' that also includes me).

That said, my post in the Ibarr proposal thread was nothing short of brilliant and on this one, I do not mind tooting me own horn.

Here's to hornification, baby! :awesome:

The conversation isn't too quick...it's too boring.....anytime Tre'

musclefox
09-12-2008, 01:33 AM
Tre', in post #167, you may or may not have been called a pussy. :angel:



That's the best post regarding you son...

musclefox
09-12-2008, 01:34 AM
The conversation isn't too quick...it's too boring.....anytime Tre'



Also I'm distracted by life, you know, interesting things

dvsness
09-12-2008, 01:36 AM
Also I'm distracted by life, you know, interesting things

Hey, you're the one quoting yourself and asking if pussy is a disease. Might I suggest you broaden said interests?

musclefox
09-12-2008, 01:40 AM
Hey, you're the one quoting yourself and asking if pussy is a disease. Might I suggest you broaden said interests?



Honey...I wasn't referring to pussy as a disease. It was a joke making reference to what you keep harping on (addiction being disease). And what interests you besides porn which you keep stating.....Remember?

Musclepapa John
09-12-2008, 01:43 AM
Get off your knees, it's unbecoming.
And now, for tangent 789025730:
You may choose to partake in drugs, but no, I don't believe addiction is a choice. I don't think anyone does a line of coke thinking, 'I sure do hope that I become an addict so that I may have my relationships, health and employment suffer.'

:D
Maybe you are right about this being boring. I've uploaded a few "free clips" of competitors to youtube and think I'll head to the gym. I think I'm addicted.

Later.

musclefox
09-12-2008, 01:46 AM
:D
Maybe you are right about this being boring. I've uploaded a few "free clips" of competitors to youtube and think I'll head to the gym. I think I'm addicted.

Later.



Peace bro'

FemFlex
09-12-2008, 01:48 AM
The conversation isn't too quick...it's too boring.....anytime Tre'

Also I'm distracted by life, you know, interesting things

Um, did you just quote yourself?

:no:

Now you've gone and done it...

dvsness
09-12-2008, 01:49 AM
Honey...I wasn't referring to pussy as a disease. It was a joke making reference to what you keep harping on (addiction being disease). And what interests you besides porn which you keep stating.....Remember?

Honey? Son? Lol. Each condescending term is better than the one prior.

Well, Dear, when I was bringing up porn I was trying to interject some humor into a tense situation. Those that are more accustomed to my tone more often than not refer to it as wit. You may have missed that, though I am not sure if it's a sign of my intellect wilting or yours.

musclefox
09-12-2008, 01:51 AM
Honey? Son? Lol. Each condescending term is better than the one prior.

Well, Dear, when I was bringing up porn I was trying to interject some humor into a tense situation. Those that are more accustomed to my tone more often than not refer to it as wit. You may have missed that, though I am not sure if it's a sign of my intellect wilting or yours.



I KNOW you guys Love me...U can't stand too leave me LOL, LOL

FemFlex
09-12-2008, 01:51 AM
Honey? Son? Lol. Each condescending term is better than the one prior.

Well, Dear, when I was bringing up porn I was trying to interject some humor into a tense situation. Those that are more accustomed to my tone more often than not refer to it as wit. You may have missed that, though I am not sure if it's a sign of my intellect wilting or yours.
Vanessa - Just for the sake of discussion, prior to your encounter with 'Musclefox', have you even been called 'son' before?

musclefox
09-12-2008, 01:53 AM
Vanessa - Just for the sake of discussion, prior to your encounter with 'Musclefox', have you even been called 'son' before?

Probably Not. Nor was she called son in this thread....YOU WERE.....SON

dvsness
09-12-2008, 01:54 AM
Vanessa - Just for the sake of discussion, prior to your encounter with 'Musclefox', have you even been called 'son' before?

Only by Cody, but he's from the south and calls everyone son, including Krissy and Alyssa. :p

dvsness
09-12-2008, 01:56 AM
Probably Not. Nor was she called son in this thread....YOU WERE.....SON

Interesting - when I am quoted I usually take that as a response to me.

Fwiw, I don't recommend you call any men of Tre's complexion 'Son' if you ever come to Brooklyn. You are not likely to have use of your legs ever again.

I suggest you learn how to discuss without calling anyone anything. Your arguments should stand on merit alone, without name calling or ad hominem attacks.

I would hate to have to put anyone in time out.

musclefox
09-12-2008, 01:56 AM
Vanessa - Just for the sake of discussion, prior to your encounter with 'Musclefox', have you even been called 'son' before?



I think Y'all need to call each other "husband" and "wife", dvsness be nice to your wife!

Grade "A" Four cornered s
09-12-2008, 02:00 AM
Interesting - when I am quoted I usually take that as a response to me.

Fwiw, I don't recommend you call any men of Tre's complexion 'Son' if you ever come to Brooklyn. You are not likely to have use of your legs ever again.

I suggest you learn how to discuss without calling anyone anything. Your arguments should stand on merit alone, without name calling or ad hominem attacks.

I would hate to have to put anyone in time out.


:respect::bowdown: That's from a fellow Noo Yawka!

musclefox
09-12-2008, 02:02 AM
See ya' folks...gotta' go :cool: :frog:

FemFlex
09-12-2008, 02:19 AM
See ya' folks...gotta' go :cool: :frog:
Epic cry for attention.

Listen to Vanessa now, ya hear?

FitnFirm
09-12-2008, 03:00 AM
I think Y'all need to call each other "husband" and "wife", dvsness be nice to your wife!

WTF is your problem :confused: I think you need to learn some respect for others.

FemFlex
09-12-2008, 03:12 AM
WTF is your problem :confused: I think you need to learn some respect for others.
It's all good, Kathy - he's better this way.

This is like "The Real World: SiouxCountry". :D

ibarramedia
09-12-2008, 03:17 AM
It's all good, Kathy - he's better this way.

This is like "The Real World: SiouxCountry". :D

I don't want to post an owned graphic... But if the 'other' section was here, everyone would be kept safe from the crossfire. wink @ Tre'. Too much <Radio edit> here....

Siouxcountry
09-12-2008, 03:22 AM
See ya' folks...gotta' go :cool: :frog:

If you decide to return please grow up. Night.

HDPhysiques-Joe
09-12-2008, 03:53 AM
Damn, Vanessa pwning the SHIT outta mfox and MPJ in this thread. Love it! Can't wait to meet you in vegas, girl! :spit:

Grade "A" Four cornered s
09-12-2008, 04:21 AM
If you decide to return please grow up. Night.


THANK YOU! This situation was getting way out of hand.

musclefox
09-12-2008, 04:36 AM
:respect::bowdown: That's from a fellow Noo Yawka!


Dude....I don't know (or care) who you are. Don't you ever accuse me of racism again!!! Tre has no avatar. The only Tre I know is a white kid from West Viriginia. What you just implied is selfish, childish, and an act of "cowardism". I don't mind a little "rough stuff". But I definitely DON'T play that. EVER. If you want to "man up" then fine. Don't hide behind the race card though. EVER.

P.S. I don't know or care if your'e black, white, or a friggin' rainbow. If you try that again, I'm PM'n Sioux. Then comin' to the big apple. Peace.

musclefox
09-12-2008, 04:39 AM
Only by Cody, but he's from the south and calls everyone son, including Krissy and Alyssa. :p



Vanessa....all joking aside. At least you understand something. Some folks don't.:nuts:

FitnFirm
09-12-2008, 04:42 AM
Vanessa....all joking aside. At least you understand something. Some folks don't.:nuts:

Just what is your purpose on this forum anyway :confused:

musclefox
09-12-2008, 04:44 AM
Just what is your purpose on this forum anyway :confused:



What is yours and who the HE#* are you???

FitnFirm
09-12-2008, 04:45 AM
What is yours and who the HE#* are you???

Well Im a friend of Sioux's and a supporter of the gals here.

musclefox
09-12-2008, 04:48 AM
Well Im a friend of Sioux's and a supporter of the gals here.



Well..."ms supporter of the gals", if you look at all my posts up until someone accused me of something childish, I was 100% positive. For some reason, I don't like having accusations thrown at me that aren't true. Can you imagine that?

FitnFirm
09-12-2008, 04:49 AM
Well..."ms supporter of the gals", if you look at all my posts up until someone accused me of something childish, I was 100% positive. For some reason, I don't like having accusations thrown at me that aren't true. Can you imagine that?

Maybe its your cocky attitude that causes problems, Can you imagine that ?

musclefox
09-12-2008, 04:51 AM
Maybe its your cocky attitude that causes problems, Can you imagine that ?


"So I was raised wrong" - don cheadle

What I can imagine is that weak people want a "scapegoat". I've said some of the least insulting things, and folks who can't stand on their own (groupies) gravitate to one another......

FitnFirm
09-12-2008, 04:54 AM
"So I was raised wrong" - don cheadle

What I can imagine is that weak people want a "scapegoat". I've said some of the least insulting things, and folks who can't stand on their own (groupies) gravitate to one another......

Well if you are not happy here, there is always the log out button ;)

musclefox
09-12-2008, 05:01 AM
Well if you are not happy here, there is always the log out button ;)

Listen, I don't know who you think you are. I've not had any trouble until this thread. I think you all are scared of the truth though. You only wish you could look into the mirror and not see problems. You hope to be able to find other people too project your issues onto. That is making excuses. Are you like that all the time, or just weak for me?

FitnFirm
09-12-2008, 05:04 AM
Listen, I don't know who you think you are. I've not had any trouble until this thread. I think you all are scared of the truth though. You only wish you could look into the mirror and not see problems. You hope to be able to find other people too project your issues onto. That is making excuses. Are you like that all the time, or just weak for me?

you are very delusional :nuts:

Siouxcountry
09-12-2008, 05:05 AM
Listen, I don't know who you think you are. I've not had any trouble until this thread. I think you all are scared of the truth though. You only wish you could look into the mirror and not see problems. You hope to be able to find other people too project your issues onto. That is making excuses. Are you like that all the time, or just weak for me?

Scared of what Truth? :confused:

musclefox
09-12-2008, 05:09 AM
you are very delusional :nuts:



Seriously though....if you read all the comments from the beginning. It's not hard to see that my intentions are honest, well meaning AND respectful. When it heated up though, some couldn't handle it. People get mad and feel insulted, and want to crucify someone. It's been like that for thousands of years (at least 2000 if you think about, I mean some people commit NO sins and get crucified).

FitnFirm
09-12-2008, 05:10 AM
Seriously though....if you read all the comments from the beginning. It's not hard to see that my intentions are honest, well meaning AND respectful. When it heated up though, some couldn't handle it. People get mad and feel insulted, and want to crucify someone. It's been like that for thousands of years (at least 2000 if you think about, I mean some people commit NO sins and get crucified).

Did you forget your meds today :confused:

musclefox
09-12-2008, 05:16 AM
Scared of what Truth? :confused:



I figured you ask. I am not an angel (admittedly). I have had only honest conversations thus far. Femflex threw accusations at me. We discussed things and then he became personal. I simply defended myself. People don't like honest people because they might say something that "brings them down". My intention is not to bring anyone down. I will not however, compromise or back down. I've gotten personal with no-one. Someone else then accused me of racism and then all hell broke loose. I hate no one. Cowards though will hide behind everthing AND "throw people under the bus" in order to look good. I think people are "bonding" over the "mis-understanding" of others (and enjoying it).

musclefox
09-12-2008, 05:18 AM
Did you forget your meds today :confused:

:wtf:

FemFlex
09-12-2008, 05:19 AM
Seriously though....if you read all the comments from the beginning. It's not hard to see that my intentions are honest, well meaning AND respectful. When it heated up though, some couldn't handle it. People get mad and feel insulted, and want to crucify someone. It's been like that for thousands of years (at least 2000 if you think about, I mean some people commit NO sins and get crucified).
With the playing of not just any, but THE Jesus card, you have officially - and rather publicly, I might add - committed hari kari.

Thank you for playing.

musclefox
09-12-2008, 05:20 AM
With the playing of not just any, but THE Jesus card, you have officially - and rather publicly, I might add - committed hari kari.

Thank you for playing.

Your'e totally missing the point. People will accuse others who are right sometimes.....

Musclepapa John
09-12-2008, 06:20 AM
Best. Post. Ever.
Vanessa is rockin' this joint!!
You gonna be in Vegas for the O? Gotta build a quality party around you and AlliMo.

You WILL be bringing pics back to Siouxcountry.com of the party won't you? Least you can do for Sioux providing recruitment grounds.:popcorn:

FemFlex
09-12-2008, 06:23 AM
I'm an admitted fan of the webcam industry. Another thing I'd like to point out is that, because of the positive word-of-mouth advertising by women who've taken advantage of the opportunity, we are receiving new referrals on a weekly basis.

As I so often say, webcam is not for everyone, but I see so many positives that it's worth a try for almost anyone.

FemFlex
09-12-2008, 06:25 AM
You WILL be bringing pics back to Siouxcountry.com of the party won't you? Least you can do for Sioux providing recruitment grounds.:popcorn:
:yw:

Sorry, but this is the kind of party where no cameras are allowed. ;)

Femphysiquefan
09-12-2008, 06:55 AM
I know that Paul has already mentioned that his forum is open for anyone who wants to discuss religion in depth, but so you all know, I have also started a religion thread separate from this discussion in this forum as well. I would like to suggest that those who do wish to continue the discussion of religion would move their discussion to either one of these two places, as either one would be the more appropriate venue rather than a forum that is dealing specifically with the subject of adult-oriented activities in the fitness industry.

anglicanbeachparty
09-12-2008, 10:28 AM
I know that Paul has already mentioned that his forum is open for anyone who wants to discuss religion in depth, but so you all know, I have also started a religion thread separate from this discussion in this forum as well. I would like to suggest that those who do wish to continue the discussion of religion would move their discussion to either one of these two places, as either one would be the more appropriate venue rather than a forum that is dealing specifically with the subject of adult-oriented activities in the fitness industry.

Thanks, Jeremy. :waving: You're welcome to use the AnglicanBeachParty forum for this sort of thing, too.

anglicanbeachparty
09-12-2008, 10:36 AM
Well..."ms supporter of the gals", if you look at all my posts up until someone accused me of something childish, I was 100% positive. For some reason, I don't like having accusations thrown at me that aren't true. Can you imagine that?

Hi musclefox ... I don't know you, but as a somewhat neutral (read: clueless about the background between you and the other verbal pugilists in this thread), I have to comment that you're not helping yourself here with these smarmy, wise-ass remarks.

I have read the entire thread, and I understand what you are saying about having behaved well up until provoked. But, after that point, IMHO, you crossed a line that should not have been crossed.

I have absolutely nothing against you. I'm just trying to say that if you'd curb your tone, you might win more people over to your point of view.

Feel free to PM me if you wish.

foxybr189
09-12-2008, 11:05 AM
I'm an admitted fan of the webcam industry. Another thing I'd like to point out is that, because of the positive word-of-mouth advertising by women who've taken advantage of the opportunity, we are receiving new referrals on a weekly basis.

As I so often say, webcam is not for everyone, but I see so many positives that it's worth a try for almost anyone.

Tre- could you please list the positives? I would really like to know...and I am not being facetious.:confused:

I would surely lose my job if I were to do webcams. So, please tell me how I could turn that into a positive.

xena
09-12-2008, 11:10 AM
:waving:Hi Everyone! Being a proud member of the "sunshine brigade", I'm just stopping in to wish everyone a great Friday and weekend!

Like the famous saying from the 60's went:

Make Love Not War


...and no...I am not volunteering. :p LOL!!

foxybr189
09-12-2008, 11:27 AM
I also wanted to add that, though I obviously do not condone the adult-industry and related work, I do applaud Ali for being an educated female in the industry. You have been very respectful on this thread and have made very good points. I am very glad that you responded with your reasoning of why you do what you do.

I find it quite interesting that we were actually born in the same small town in P.A, we both decided to further our education and attend college and we both chose to join the wonderful world of figure. Empowering or not, we both were able to make these choices and have succeeded in all endeavors.

We did make vastly different choices when it came to acquiring funds to compete. I chose the 8-5+ job. I wanted to travel the world and this job has allowed me to do it at someone else's expense. I was in Honolulu last month and Seattle for the past 2 weeks and somewhere in between this all, I still find time for training.

I have never said that I am perfect. We all make mistakes. If you stand behind what you do ( Ali surely does), then keep on doing it. I really just wanted to understand the motivation for working in the adult-industry. Though I don't agree with it, I know better understand why a woman may be part of it.

My initial statement, which started this thread, was meant to voice my opinion and elicit other opinions. However, I believe that my posts were not disrespectful. So, I kindly ask others to be respectful of all people who post on this thread. We are all adults so let's conduct ourselves in that manner.

Does everyone agree? If you can not be respectful, please take your thoughts to another board.

I love Siouxcountry.com and do not want people to think that we are a bunch of hostile people.

Musclepapa John
09-12-2008, 11:31 AM
:yw:

Sorry, but this is the kind of party where no cameras are allowed. ;)

So you can solicit women here with the virtues of web caming that is oh so (supposedly) empowering and then have some private party where "NO" cameras are allowed? I can't imagine a businessman such as yourself, a smooth operator in the photography and video business would not be taking pictures at such an event. Even the notoriously wild MD after parties have photos and videos taken at them. And of course you aren't seeking to lure the ladies there merely to discuss empowerment I'm sure:popcorn:

xena
09-12-2008, 11:33 AM
Beautifully and eloquently said. :bowdown:

I also wanted to add that, though I obviously do not condone the adult-industry and related work, I do applaud Ali for being an educated female in the industry. You have been very respectful on this thread and have made very good points. I am very glad that you responded with your reasoning of why you do what you do.

I find it quite interesting that we were actually born in the same small town in P.A, we both decided to further our education and attend college and we both chose to join the wonderful world of figure. Empowering or not, we both were able to make these choices and have succeeded in all endeavors.

We did make vastly different choices when it came to acquiring funds to compete. I chose the 8-5+ job. I wanted to travel the world and this job has allowed me to do it at someone else's expense. I was in Honolulu last month and Seattle for the past 2 weeks and somewhere in between this all, I still find time for training.

I have never said that I am perfect. We all make mistakes. If you stand behind what you do ( Ali surely does), then keep on doing it. I really just wanted to understand the motivation for working in the adult-industry. Though I don't agree with it, I know better understand why a woman may be part of it.

My initial statement, which started this thread, was meant to voice my opinion and elicit other opinions. However, I believe that my posts were not disrespectful. So, I kindly ask others to be respectful of all people who post on this thread. We are all adults so let's conduct ourselves in that manner.

Does everyone agree? If you can not be respectful, please take your thoughts to another board.

I love Siouxcountry.com and do not want people to think that we are a bunch of hostile people.

Musclepapa John
09-12-2008, 11:34 AM
I also wanted to add that, though I obviously do not condone the adult-industry and related work, I do applaud Ali for being an educated female in the industry. You have been very respectful on this thread and have made very good points. I am very glad that you responded with your reasoning of why you do what you do.

I find it quite interesting that we were actually born in the same small town in P.A, we both decided to further our education and attend college and we both chose to join the wonderful world of figure. Empowering or not, we both were able to make these choices and have succeeded in all endeavors.

We did make vastly different choices when it came to acquiring funds to compete. I chose the 8-5+ job. I wanted to travel the world and this job has allowed me to do it at someone else's expense. I was in Honolulu last month and Seattle for the past 2 weeks and somewhere in between this all, I still find time for training.

I have never said that I am perfect. We all make mistakes. If you stand behind what you do ( Ali surely does), then keep on doing it. I really just wanted to understand the motivation for working in the adult-industry. Though I don't agree with it, I know better understand why a woman may be part of it.

My initial statement, which started this thread, was meant to voice my opinion and elicit other opinions. However, I believe that my posts were not disrespectful. So, I kindly ask others to be respectful of all people who post on this thread. We are all adults so let's conduct ourselves in that manner.

Does everyone agree? If you can not be respectful, please take your thoughts to another board.

I love Siouxcountry.com and do not want people to think that we are a bunch of hostile people.

Terrific comments and I agree 100%.

Musclepapa John
09-12-2008, 12:16 PM
I'd like to offer another point relative to the suggestions made that religion should be stripped away from all these other threads, etc. The terms of service for most web service providers I suspect including here don't prohibit use of religious terms, but strictly prohibit what they declare to be "profanity." While some claim to want to build siouxcountry.com they could as easily cuss up a storm and then lodge a complaint and force Sioux to have to find another web service provider and rebuild the entire base of wonderful, useful information that can be found at this site, the leading resource on the planet for information and affirmation of the female athletes in bodybuilding, fitness, and figure.

dvsness
09-12-2008, 01:44 PM
Seriously though....if you read all the comments from the beginning. It's not hard to see that my intentions are honest, well meaning AND respectful. When it heated up though, some couldn't handle it. People get mad and feel insulted, and want to crucify someone. It's been like that for thousands of years (at least 2000 if you think about, I mean some people commit NO sins and get crucified).

:banghead:

Did you forget your meds today :confused:

Top o' the morning!

You WILL be bringing pics back to Siouxcountry.com of the party won't you? Least you can do for Sioux providing recruitment grounds.:popcorn:

And just who has been recruited thus far?

I know that Paul has already mentioned that his forum is open for anyone who wants to discuss religion in depth, but so you all know, I have also started a religion thread separate from this discussion in this forum as well. I would like to suggest that those who do wish to continue the discussion of religion would move their discussion to either one of these two places, as either one would be the more appropriate venue rather than a forum that is dealing specifically with the subject of adult-oriented activities in the fitness industry.

Jeremy for President!

anglicanbeachparty
09-12-2008, 01:47 PM
And just who has been recruited thus far?

Me!

I got conned into making gay cowboy pr0n ... I can PM you a sample. :angel:

dvsness
09-12-2008, 01:55 PM
Me!

I got conned into making gay cowboy pr0n ... I can PM you a sample. :angel:

Conned? Are you saying that you didn't find it empowering?

anglicanbeachparty
09-12-2008, 01:59 PM
Conned? Are you saying that you didn't find it empowering?

It would've been empowering if I had not sprayed too much Jan Tana on my face.

It's not really gay pr0n ... more like Oompah Loompah pr0n ... :angel:

dvsness
09-12-2008, 02:02 PM
It would've been empowering if I had not sprayed too much Jan Tana on my face.

It's not really gay pr0n ... more like Oompah Loompah pr0n ... :angel:

You know, you really shouldn't use the Jan Tana on the face. Either use MAC NW 45 or 50. If you don't have any, mix your tanner with equal parts moisturizer. It'll be kinder on the skin and wash off better. :spit:

anglicanbeachparty
09-12-2008, 02:04 PM
You know, you really shouldn't use the Jan Tana on the face. Either use MAC NW 45 or 50. If you don't have any, mix your tanner with equal parts moisturizer. It'll be kinder on the skin and wash off better. :spit:

Sure ... now you tell me! :LOLOL:

FemFlex
09-12-2008, 02:11 PM
My initial statement, which started this thread, was meant to voice my opinion and elicit other opinions. However, I believe that my posts were not disrespectful.
Right, but although you did not intend it, your earlier comments contained veiled condescension as you expressed your outrage over what some individuals were doing. Then, you later referred to your 'good upbringing', seemingly suggesting that those who make different choices were not raised well.

It's all good, though.

For the most part, we've all acknowledged that it takes a variety of viewpoints and opinions to make a good discussion.

FemFlex
09-12-2008, 02:30 PM
So you can solicit women here with the virtues of web caming that is oh so (supposedly) empowering and then have some private party where "NO" cameras are allowed? I can't imagine a businessman such as yourself, a smooth operator in the photography and video business would not be taking pictures at such an event. Even the notoriously wild MD after parties have photos and videos taken at them. And of course you aren't seeking to lure the ladies there merely to discuss empowerment I'm sure:popcorn:
Despite the prohibition, some cameras were smuggled in, and a few images were able to make it out to the public:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1157/1470714911_6495b050af_o.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1183/1471570732_2d3e17addb_o.jpg


http://www1.femflex.com/images/events/unrealparty05.jpg

http://www1.femflex.com/images/events/unrealparty02.jpg

http://www1.femflex.com/images/events/unrealparty04.jpg

http://www1.femflex.com/images/events/unrealparty01.jpg

Alli
09-12-2008, 02:37 PM
I'm an admitted fan of the webcam industry. Another thing I'd like to point out is that, because of the positive word-of-mouth advertising by women who've taken advantage of the opportunity, we are receiving new referrals on a weekly basis.

As I so often say, webcam is not for everyone, but I see so many positives that it's worth a try for almost anyone.

Agreed. I recommend to most women I meet that they give it a whirl.

Alli
09-12-2008, 02:44 PM
I also wanted to add that, though I obviously do not condone the adult-industry and related work, I do applaud Ali for being an educated female in the industry. You have been very respectful on this thread and have made very good points. I am very glad that you responded with your reasoning of why you do what you do.

I find it quite interesting that we were actually born in the same small town in P.A, we both decided to further our education and attend college and we both chose to join the wonderful world of figure. Empowering or not, we both were able to make these choices and have succeeded in all endeavors.

We did make vastly different choices when it came to acquiring funds to compete. I chose the 8-5+ job. I wanted to travel the world and this job has allowed me to do it at someone else's expense. I was in Honolulu last month and Seattle for the past 2 weeks and somewhere in between this all, I still find time for training.

I have never said that I am perfect. We all make mistakes. If you stand behind what you do ( Ali surely does), then keep on doing it. I really just wanted to understand the motivation for working in the adult-industry. Though I don't agree with it, I know better understand why a woman may be part of it.

My initial statement, which started this thread, was meant to voice my opinion and elicit other opinions. However, I believe that my posts were not disrespectful. So, I kindly ask others to be respectful of all people who post on this thread. We are all adults so let's conduct ourselves in that manner.


Welcome back Danielle. And thanks for the kudos. I think you and I are an example of two women who have very different views on what we do in this industry, yet we can be mindful of each others opinions and views AND we can treat each other with respect. Like adults. hmmmmm.... perhaps its something we share as a result of our PA raising hahaha.

At any rate to respond to your question about the motivation behind working in the adult industry... I return to this statement:

1. What constitutes as "adult industry"? I think some on here would categorize webcam as being part of the adult industry, and this may be true depending on your limits as to what you reveal or don't reveal on cam, BUT if someone were to ask me if I work in the adult oriented industry I would say no..... in accordance with my personal views and limitations I do not see what I do as adult oriented... but then again someone else on the outside looking in on what I do may have a different viewpoint.

and as vanessa said I do seem to draw haters like a moth to the flame...so who knows... I'm sure someone is sitting there right now waiting to launch in with claws drawn to tell me what I do is adult oriented... and of course they have a right to that opinion.

I suppose no matter WHAT you do, at the end of the day you need to live with yourself and the choices you make. if you can do that, and stand behin what you do- then I applaud whoever you are and have the utmost respect for you. In the end, that's the most important thing- to be satisfied from within, with yourself.

Alli
09-12-2008, 02:45 PM
Damn, Vanessa pwning the SHIT outta mfox and MPJ in this thread. Love it! Can't wait to meet you in vegas, girl! :spit:

She's worth the wait Joe she's the SHIT!!!!