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  #1  
Old 09-04-2008, 06:50 PM
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Default Speak On It: Adult-oriented activities linked to our industry

In response to a discussion about webcam work, Danielle posted the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxybr189
To each their own...I suppose. But I have to say, that after reading this sections and doing a quick Google search, I was appalled to see the amount of figure and bodybuilding women that are taking part in such types of...dare I say pornography. Maybe I am naive or possibly overly conservative.

I really thought that figure was meant to empower women. Though I hate to put on those clear stripper shoes for competitions, I didn't realize that they are worn by some all year round.

I am sure I will get blasted for this one. However, I don't care. This is my stance and I am sticking to it. I understand that people need money, but money is not everything. Sure it will pay your bills, but this type of "work" is really limiting to ones career.

The internet is a great thing, to a certain extent. But people do need to remember that the entire world now has access to what you do. Especially, if it is more "private" in nature.
Male or female, virtually every choice you make empowers you.

At their respective cores, what is the difference between posing for free and posing for money?
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  #2  
Old 09-04-2008, 08:17 PM
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It's Not Roid Rage ! It's Not Roid Rage ! is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FemFlex View Post
In response to a discussion about webcam work, Danielle posted the following:



Male or female, virtually every choice you make empowers you.

At their respective cores, what is the difference between posing for free and posing for money?
Well, I wish I atleast had the Choice to show Some Ass for money, Hell I'd Have to Pay You To Look At It ! LMAO
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  #3  
Old 09-04-2008, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by FemFlex View Post
At their respective cores, what is the difference between posing for free and posing for money?
The poses are different.

I think posing for money usually goes beyond compulsory poses and quarter turns ...
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  #4  
Old 09-04-2008, 11:28 PM
Musclepapa John Musclepapa John is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FemFlex View Post
In response to a discussion about webcam work, Danielle posted the following:
Male or female, virtually every choice you make empowers you.
At their respective cores, what is the difference between posing for free and posing for money?
Bad choices don't necessarily empower people. Of course "bad" denotes a value judgment and system might should be adhered to. Persuasion, rhetoric, and manipulation involve encouraging people to make certain choices whether or not they result in empowerment or just bad choices. I'm certainly for empowerment.

Definition: Choice consists of the mental process of thinking involved with the process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one of them for action. Some simple examples include deciding whether to get up in the morning or go back to sleep, or selecting a given route for a journey. More complex examples (often decisions that affect what a person thinks or their core beliefs) include choosing a lifestyle, religious affiliation, or political position.

Most people regard having choices as a good thing, though a severely limited or artificially restricted choice can lead to discomfort with choosing and possibly, an unsatisfactory outcome. In contrast, unlimited choice may lead to confusion, regret of the alternatives not taken, and indifference in an unstructured existence; and the illusion that choosing an object or a course leads necessarily to control of that object or course can cause psychological problems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice


Empowerment:

The process which enables one to gain power,authority and influence over others,institutions or society. Empowerment is probably the totality of the following or similar capabilities:-

* Having decision-making power of one's own
* Having access to information and resources for taking proper decision
* Having a range of options from which you can make choices (not just yes/no, either/or.)
* Ability to exercise assertiveness in collective decision making
* Having positive thinking on the ability to make change
* Ability to learn skills for improving one's personal or group power.
* Ability to change others’ perceptions by democratic means.
* Involving in the growth process and changes that is never ending and self-initiated
* Increasing one's positive self-image and overcoming stigma
* Increasing ones ability in discreet thinking to sort out right and wrong

In short, the empowerment is the process that allows one to gain the knowledge, skill-sets and attitude needed to cope up with the changing world and the circumstances in which one lives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empowerment

Persuasion is a form of social influence. It is the process of guiding people toward the adoption of an idea, attitude, or action by rational and symbolic (though not always logical) means. It is strategy of problem-solving relying on "appeals" rather than strength.

Manipulation is taking persuasion to an extreme, where the one person or group benefits at the cost of the other.

Aristotle said that "Rhetoric is the art of discovering, in a particular case, the available means of persuasion."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasion
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  #5  
Old 09-04-2008, 11:57 PM
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Very well said Papa!

Again, I was only speaking from my standpoint. For me, the issue is not about posing for money or not. It's more about the type or genre of posing.

I'm not sure if anyone else agrees with me, but even though I am 26 years old, I am still very mindful of how my actions will affect those close to me. My parents and elders made many sacrifices to ensure that I had a good upbringing. I would feel ashamed for my mother or father to Google me on the internet to see my show results and end up finding out that I have "adult" images posted on websites. How would I explain that to them?

I speak to many young girls that I know about perusing their dreams of becoming whatever they dream of being in life. How could I explain to them how posing nude is empowering to them; I could not.

At the end of the day, I know that I have kept true to myself. I work out hard and eat healthy, I hold a position that at one time was not available to women or minorities and I am "rich" with self-pride.

I hope that I can inspire other young girls to attain their dreams while keeping their dignity and I would not be a good role model if I was partaking in such activities.

That is where I am coming from when I made my first comment.
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  #6  
Old 09-05-2008, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by foxybr189 View Post
Very well said Papa!
He simply quotes a bunch of items from Wikipedia and that's 'well said'?

I don't think we're off to a good start here.

This is only my opinion.
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  #7  
Old 09-05-2008, 02:01 AM
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Money talks. It always does, always will. Some of you say you won't "pose" in that sort of manner, because of the consequences, and repercussions.

Suppose I were to offer you $1000.00 for a few shots of nudity. Of course you would instantly deny the offer, but what if I raised the stakes?

What if I said $10,000 for a few photographs? I bet you would think about it for a second or 2.

What if I said $30,000? Think about a new car for yourself, paying off ALL OF YOUR BILLS, bankrolling a nice chunk...whatever you want to do. Now your mind is thinking "Hrmm...maybe noone will find out"

What if I said $100,000? You'd be sending me a pm.


BTW, I don't do this stuff, lol, i'll buy you a few drinks though.
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  #8  
Old 09-05-2008, 02:08 AM
Musclepapa John Musclepapa John is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FemFlex View Post
He simply quotes a bunch of items from Wikipedia and that's 'well said'?
Factually incorrect assertion, but will likely serve your purpose in being persuasive with those inclined toward your position. There were more than quotations from Wikipedia. Let me quote myself (lol), "Bad choices don't necessarily empower people. Of course "bad" denotes a value judgment and system might should be adhered to. Persuasion, rhetoric, and manipulation involve encouraging people to make certain choices whether or not they result in empowerment or just bad choices. I'm certainly for empowerment."


I don't take issue with the choice made by some to take off their clothes and do photography or sessions, but recognize that foxybr189 is making points every bit as persuasive as yours. Where some are already set in their decision as to what choices to make relative to this issue this entire thread may be a mute point. Yet, where she takes one side and you essentially take the other I'd say this should be interesting and thought provoking.

Last edited by Musclepapa John : 09-05-2008 at 02:19 AM.
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  #9  
Old 09-05-2008, 02:18 AM
Musclepapa John Musclepapa John is offline
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Originally Posted by joelster View Post
Money talks. It always does, always will. Some of you say you won't "pose" in that sort of manner, because of the consequences, and repercussions.
Suppose I were to offer you $1000.00 for a few shots of nudity. Of course you would instantly deny the offer, but what if I raised the stakes?
What if I said $10,000 for a few photographs? I bet you would think about it for a second or 2.
What if I said $30,000? Think about a new car for yourself, paying off ALL OF YOUR BILLS, bankrolling a nice chunk...whatever you want to do. Now your mind is thinking "Hrmm...maybe noone will find out"
What if I said $100,000? You'd be sending me a pm.
BTW, I don't do this stuff, lol, i'll buy you a few drinks though.
I know and work with ladies who do sessions work and ladies who work in professions where they wouldn't consider sending you the pm for a chance at collecting that 100Gs. Oh sure you can always get people to do most anything with money. Fear Factor and shows like Jerry Springer demonstrate the availability of people willing to do most anything publicly. Will I publicly denounce the lifestyle choices made by my sessions working buddies? No as I'm not their moral compass and they don't want to hear it from me. Most of these folks are very successful at what they do and it is "just" business. Yet, like Hollywood there are lots of folks that think their cute face and other assets are going to be their ticket to the top. We all should know few can make a serious and profitable go at it over the long haul. Then what?
Furthermore, media people also have choices. And don't expect members of the media to protect a session worker from exposure if an assignment is made by a publication to write about them wrestling City Councilmen, members of the clergy, etc. Of course most of these gals couldn't care less as they are tough as nails. And you don't have to be a sessions worker to face such scrutiny. Take a few nudes for a pay site and a member lift them and spread them around the internet and see if it can't hurt you as a school teacher, or with employment in any number of companies that now have for instance an Ethics Code of Conduct, that requires employees to comply or be dismissed. These are real concerns for the 20 something year old ladies that might get out of this sport in a few years and want to put the entire thingie behind them,...but alas them durn pictures

Last edited by Musclepapa John : 09-05-2008 at 02:32 AM.
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  #10  
Old 09-05-2008, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxybr189 View Post
Very well said Papa!

Again, I was only speaking from my standpoint. For me, the issue is not about posing for money or not. It's more about the type or genre of posing.

I'm not sure if anyone else agrees with me, but even though I am 26 years old, I am still very mindful of how my actions will affect those close to me. My parents and elders made many sacrifices to ensure that I had a good upbringing. I would feel ashamed for my mother or father to Google me on the internet to see my show results and end up finding out that I have "adult" images posted on websites. How would I explain that to them?

I speak to many young girls that I know about perusing their dreams of becoming whatever they dream of being in life. How could I explain to them how posing nude is empowering to them; I could not.

At the end of the day, I know that I have kept true to myself. I work out hard and eat healthy, I hold a position that at one time was not available to women or minorities and I am "rich" with self-pride.

I hope that I can inspire other young girls to attain their dreams while keeping their dignity and I would not be a good role model if I was partaking in such activities.

That is where I am coming from when I made my first comment.
When I was your age, I was a little uptight about certain things, too. Life was all about 'making the family proud', etc.

But now that I'm older, I realize that everyone's life is so much bigger now that no one has time to give a rat's patootie what I'm doing in my personal or professional life, whether in the public eye or behind closed doors. MY LIFE JUST ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT TO ANYONE BUT ME (and my nosey-ass ex-wife, but's a different story).

One of the women I most admire in this world has been a webcam performer in her rather limited spare time over the past few years. She's got multiple degrees (including an MBA) and is a wife and mother. Oh, she's also a corporate executive. I'd be willing to put her resumé and value as a person in this world up against anyone you're willing to trot out there and she will match or exceed them all in terms of dignity.

You have built a wonderful life for yourself. I can appreciate you noting the sacrifices of those who've helped you to become what you are. I don't want you to think for a moment that I'm being dismissive of that.

But c'mon now - do parents really 'Google' their kids??

I'm open about what I do and although my mother has teased me a few times over the years, at the end of the day, her primary concern is that I'm being a good dad and providing for her grandchild.

I have always maintained that 'webcam isn't for everyone' and that goes for would-be performers and would-be clients. But be that as it may, I don't know that it's a valuable use of energy or emotion to be 'appalled' at what some adults choose to do in the privacy of their own homes or of the photographers' studios.
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  #11  
Old 09-05-2008, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by joelster View Post
BTW, I don't do this stuff, lol, i'll buy you a few drinks though.
LOL!!



I know that Dr. Lisa Aukland won't do it. But she's on an exclusive, VERY short list.
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  #12  
Old 09-05-2008, 05:06 AM
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Great Thread:
When I was young & Idealistic I probably would have said no fuckin way, do not sell your body/soul......(self rightous)

But ya know what I am almost 43 now , Mother of 3 sons, Grandma of two, and ya know what???? Life experience behind me so......... Show me the money & I will show ya my tastefull nude pics...

Why not? My body is beautiful, I worked hard get it, it sells, I am PROUD so why NOT make money off it???? Of course, I would not submit slutty pics, but I am all about the beauty & art of FBB....

Again, JMO....
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  #13  
Old 09-05-2008, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa View Post
Great Thread:
When I was young & Idealistic I probably would have said no fuckin way, do not sell your body/soul......(self rightous)

But ya know what I am almost 43 now , Mother of 3 sons, Grandma of two, and ya know what???? Life experience behind me so......... Show me the money & I will show ya my tastefull nude pics...

Why not? My body is beautiful, I worked hard get it, it sells, I am PROUD so why NOT make money off it???? Of course, I would not submit slutty pics, but I am all about the beauty & art of FBB....

Again, JMO....

Grandma Wow. Hottest looking grand ma no doubt. I'll bet the grand kids woud brag about you.
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  #14  
Old 09-05-2008, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by It's Not Roid Rage ! View Post
Well, I wish I atleast had the Choice to show Some Ass for money, Hell I'd Have to Pay You To Look At It ! LMAO


Hey I.N.R.R. Do you own fort knox? Cause' you would need THAT much!!
(sorry - i couldn't resist )
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  #15  
Old 09-05-2008, 11:36 AM
Musclepapa John Musclepapa John is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FemFlex View Post
When I was your age, I was a little uptight about certain things, too. Life was all about 'making the family proud', etc.

But now that I'm older, I realize that everyone's life is so much bigger now that no one has time to give a rat's patootie what I'm doing in my personal or professional life, whether in the public eye or behind closed doors. MY LIFE JUST ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT TO ANYONE BUT ME (and my nosey-ass ex-wife, but's a different story).
So FemFlex where is the link to you naked in pictures? Are there certain sorts of poses you personally prefer that you think would be most salable? Surely it is a great opportunity to augment your income as there is a big market for it among some demographics. I'm sure more other than just the ex-wife would be interested. I'd even be willing to do you a promo writeup and further distribute with your espousal of how you feel empowered in the buff

Last edited by Musclepapa John : 09-05-2008 at 11:50 AM.
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  #16  
Old 09-05-2008, 11:47 AM
Musclepapa John Musclepapa John is offline
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Originally Posted by FemFlex View Post
One of the women I most admire in this world has been a webcam performer in her rather limited spare time over the past few years. She's got multiple degrees (including an MBA) and is a wife and mother. Oh, she's also a corporate executive. I'd be willing to put her resumé and value as a person in this world up against anyone you're willing to trot out there and she will match or exceed them all in terms of dignity.
No doubt, from the biblical perspective we shouldn't judge one persons' "value as a person" against another. Yet, I'd certainly be interested in knowing who is this Fortune 500 (I'd assume) corporate executive that you note does web cam work? Not to say she doesn't have value as a person, but that story has numerous news values and as a result I'd bet I could get it in print rather easily. Maybe it would help her make more money at it or as an executive maybe she doesn't do it for money. Heck, there we go with more interesting news values. Does she do it for attention, or what? As she wants such attention and is obviously proud of her activities surely you will reveal her name and the corporation in an effort to provide her further exposure right?
Can you imagine if it was found out "Sarah Palin" did web cam work?
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Old 09-05-2008, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musclepapa John View Post
No doubt, from the biblical perspective we shouldn't judge one persons' "value as a person" against another. Yet, I'd certainly be interested in knowing who is this Fortune 500 (I'd assume) corporate executive that you note does web cam work? Not to say she doesn't have value as a person, but that story has numerous news values and as a result I'd bet I could get it in print rather easily. Maybe it would help her make more money at it or as an executive maybe she doesn't do it for money. Heck, there we go with more interesting news values. Does she do it for attention, or what? As she wants such attention and is obviously proud of her activities surely you will reveal her name and the corporation in an effort to provide her further exposure right?
Can you imagine if it was found out "Sarah Palin" did web cam work?
I would also be interested to know more about that woman too.

I am not an executive, but I am manager at a Fortune 500 company who is on the top 10 list of medical device companies. I can assure you that if I had pictures of this nature, I would not have been offered the opportunity that I was given. As a women working in the corporate world, that is very much still a boys club, something like this would be very detrimental to my career.
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  #18  
Old 09-05-2008, 12:36 PM
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Ah I always love these threads. I sit back with a starbucks and get ready to give you all a mouthful hehe. Honestly- I am a sweetie in person, but these types of threads get me fired...for several reasons...and here I go.

1) We are all different. This has to be my stance on ANYTHING pertinent to what people are doing for money etc. We all have different sets of standards, morals, values, we all have boundaries- things we will do. Things we will not. It's extremly important to remember that what one person considers poor form or skanky or trashy or WHATEVER.... may not be considered poor form or skanky to another. We are all working women who participate on some level or another in the fitness industry, and therefore I think it's important to respect our differences- down to the differences in morals and values etc. To look at someone doing session work or nude work and say "That's disgusting, or she shouldn't be allowed to do that" is, in my opinion unfair. If you don't want to do it yourself-fine, but hounding another or blanket stating that is inappropriate is unfair as well, because its merely a declaration as a result of YOUR moral compass, not anothers, and the beauty of this country is that we are afforded the right to CHOOSE. So let's all keep that in mind

NOW- onto my personal experiences.... and my personal stance.

1) I am a college educated woman. I carry a double major in Wellness/sport sciences and English (of all things) haha as well as having a minor in athletic coaching (I coached cross country back when I was a runner). I am a certified aerobic instructor and acertified personal trainer. Certified in Sport Nutrition. A published poet. A certified Domestic Violence counselor ( I do volunteer work for the YWCA including hotline services to rape and assault victims).

Wow. All sounds good so far right?

WELL I am also a webcam performer. Pretty much fulltime. You can catch me on shemusclelive and on herbicepscam. Oh and I've done a wrestling video- one- for scissorvixens, just to see if I liked it. And I Thought they were professional as hell. It was fun. I'm not entirely opposed to doing it again.

Something tells me a few of you reading this have now been taking your opinion of me down a peg or two. That's okay. I'm going to keep going.

There are certain photographers I would LOVE to shoot nude with. John Stutz being one. My friend John Samson being another. Does that make me trampy?

How about I did some nude work for shemuscle in Brian Moss's gym in NY? Opinion of me still falling?

See- I am an educated, intelligent, well spoken, well read individual- yes. But I also am an athlete, a competitor, and I spend hours of dedication to diet and training to work on my body. You simply cannot do that- cannot waltz around in a bikini and then expect someone to say "tell me your opinion on politics". We work in an industry that rewards the physical not necessarily the mental. I do not make money off of my brains. I make money off of my physique, and to some degree we all do. Whether you do a small shoot for Tre or you do a thousand dollar nude spread you are making money off your physique- to one degree or another, and I simply don't see that as something to be looked down upon.

2) So where do I draw the line... hmmm well I can say this- each person needs to know what he or she is comfortable with and be willing to stick firm to it. I've done nude for one photographer and it simply happens to be someone I'm comfortable with and that's Brian Moss. Do I do nude work- I say no, because I'm ridiculously picky. Do I do session work? NO. Am I against session work? No- its just not for me. Have I done wrestling videos? yes. Have I said no to doing wrestling videos- yes (again very picky). But then again I dont need to justify my boundaries to others- I simply need to know them for myself and be strong in sticking firm to them. No one owes ANYONE in this industry, or in life for that matter, and explanation for their choicves or actions- they are allowed to be our own....and hopefully this thread is a place where we can all come as competitors, photographers, industry personnel and fans of the sport to create an environment that embraces the commonality among us rather then the things that seperate us. WE ARE ALL COMPETITORS OR FANS OF COMPETITORS OR PEOPLE WHO WORK WITH COMPETITORS.

3) Which brings me to point 3- competitors need to support themselves to. And let me tell you from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that working as a competitor and trying to hold down a full time job in the real world is hard as hell. Props to anyone who does it- I could not. I worked full time as a Director of Personal Training for Health Fitness Corporation for over a year after college. I had a 45 minute commute one way. I worked long hours. I made like 35,000 a year. And somewhere in there I tried to sandwich in a.m cardio pre contest, 6 meals a day, and weight lifting when I wasn't doing that. If I wasn't training or working I was sleeping which left me little time to have a life.

Then I discovered webcamming. I now set my own schedule. I work LESS hours, make MORE money, am afforded the time that I need to train and eat, and afforded more free time for my friends, family, and other relationships. I am less stressed. I am more relaxed. I'm happier. I smile more. Why in the hell would I consider giving that up simply because it sits ill with some people? I live in one of the most conservative counties in PA.. try explaining to people who dwell in an area surrounded by Amish that you "webcam" for a living. HA. But that's what I do and I'm unashamed. I make great money at it and the best part is I control my income. If I need to make more I work more. If I don't need the money I work less. And I would never go back to a 9-5 if I didn't have to.

I guess for me- the bottom line is that we all have morals and values that guide our choices. But your morals and values may be different from mine. If you don't want to be judged by others for your actions don't be so quick to judge others for theirs. We're here to support each other and encourage growth in the sport and on stage, not to pick at each other for our professions or for what we do in our spare time. Sex and nudity is a very private thing for many people- for others it's not. And for some, like me, we kinda float in the middle. Any way you look at it, it's okay as long as you are comfortable with YOURSELF and what YOU DO, you have no need to justify it to others...and people who get their panties in a twist on here because this one female bodybuilder or this one figure girl does nude porn- OHMIGOD well "get a life". Worry about yourself. Take care of yourself. Do what you need to do- make sure YOU'RE HAPPY. and let others do the same.
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  #19  
Old 09-05-2008, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Musclepapa John View Post
So FemFlex where is the link to you naked in pictures? Are there certain sorts of poses you personally prefer that you think would be most salable? Surely it is a great opportunity to augment your income as there is a big market for it among some demographics. I'm sure more other than just the ex-wife would be interested. I'd even be willing to do you a promo writeup and further distribute with your espousal of how you feel empowered in the buff

Being in the buff can be empowering. Why do you think "How to look good naked" required nude shoots sometimes? Or that in certain cases I've read that its been recommended to women with low self esteem or a body hatred to do a nude photo shoot to help gain appreciation for their bodies. Photo shoots make people feel sexy, or wanted, or desired. They do. Because irregardless of the nature the concept of having someone WANT to shoot you makes you think of modeling- which makes you think of desireable attractive people. And that can be empowering. And having someone want to shoot you naked , at your rawest and most vulnerable, can be empowering. To be naked in front of a camera can be intimidating and scary yes, but then you hear "beautiful, drop the chin a little, perfect, wonderful, you look great, this is great, keep it up" and the positive feedback to your nude physique takes a thing of fear and makes it a thing of confidence.

Don't knock it till you try it
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Old 09-05-2008, 01:22 PM
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Anne Sheehan Dudash Anne Sheehan Dudash is offline
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Wow...you go girls!!

I think people need to do what is right for them. If there's something someone else is doing and you don't like it..too fn bad! It's America..we have the right to.

I've done webcam and I honestly thought it was fun. Sure there would be people that would be obnoxious but it's easy enough to either ignore or block them from the room.

I love these people that pass judgement. Nobody here is an angel. We're human...animals that walk upright. Get over yourself.
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